UR evokes many emotions

[steve7150]

In other words; All earthly judgments and death itself can be said to describe and warn us of the Great and final judgment, that we are warned about ‘throughout all’ scripture.








Just for the record you share the same opinion as the JWs as they believe the resurrection does not include "the wicked." Now where do we see scripture say these warnings are a final judgment as opposed to destruction or judgment in this age?
I'm looking for the word "final" or it's equivalent.

[steve]

That is why we ‘cannot’ ignore the words of Moses or the Prophets, or Jesus, or God.

So, is it your opinion that someone here has been doing this?

[jriccitelli]

Just for the record you share the same opinion as the JWs as they believe the resurrection does not include "the wicked.

The Bible says every sinner will be judged at a final judgment in heaven. I guess your referring to what I meant by ‘some have entered into judgment even before dying’, I mean they have already been ‘found guilty’ (Sorry I may not have been clear on that).
In a human court the trial starts with ‘how do you plead’, but in God’s court everyone is guilty already, and there is not much of a reason to make a defense, so all I am saying is that God may have already pronounced judgment on many, most likely are those who have openly rejected Christ (I can say that everyone will be at the judgment, but I am not absolutely certain every single one will be, or must be there) For sure there is a punishment for sin, and God will punish post mortem.

Some might think CI is what the JW’s believe since they presume annihilation, but they deny the punishment in hell postmortem. I trust God does annihilate the wicked - but that is ‘after’ their punishment. And like I said awhile back, some may only experience the knowledge of their judgment and then destruction.

Darn have to go… before my wife destroys me. (Just joking, no i am not in danger, i hope)

[steve7150]

The Bible says every sinner will be judged at a final judgment in heaven. I guess your referring to what I meant by ‘some have entered into judgment even before dying’, I mean they have already been ‘found guilty’ (Sorry I may not have been clear on that).
In a human court the trial starts with ‘how do you plead’, but in God’s court everyone is guilty already, and there is not much of a reason to make a defense, so all I am saying is that God may have already pronounced judgment on many, most likely are those who have openly rejected Christ (I can say that everyone will be at the judgment, but I am not absolutely certain every single one will be, or must be there) For sure there is a punishment for sin, and God will punish post mortem.







OK so we are back to square one as i agree that at the great white throne judgment everyone not found in the book of life go into the lake of fire(final judgment). As i said before i think the experience in the LOF culminates in Rev 22.14-17. The Spirit and Bride invite anyone to drink from the water of life and "bride" or "wife" of Christ was just used twice previously to mean glorified bride so the only persons left at this point are those in the LOF.
It is possible at this point that certain folks who were in the LOF may have been already annihilated, or perhaps not, it doesn't say as far as i know.

[jriccitelli]

Now where do we see scripture say these warnings are a final judgment as opposed to destruction or judgment in this age? I'm looking for the word "final" or it's equivalent. (7150)

I think I will try to answer that in a response to the following;

That is why we ‘cannot’ ignore the words of Moses or the Prophets, or Jesus, or God (me)
So, is it your opinion that someone here has been doing this? (Steve)

Not mine, this is your opinion. You have implied that 'I' was doing this;

Now, we have several options:
a) Ignore the verses about judgment;
b) Ignore the verses about universal love;
c) Interpret all the verses in a way that harmonizes judgment with universal love.
It is clear that your approach is (b). Mine is (c). No one here is arguing for (a).
Is that putting things simply enough? (Steve, ‘Visiting the iniquity’ Dec 20)

Steve seems to think I am ignoring the verses about love.
Love is compatible with Judgment, because God can do both, love means honoring what is just, and love can hate what opposes love for the sake of the preservation of those who ‘want’ to love. Love is not the sum total of all Gods character, or purpose.
So all verses of love and wrath are compatible with choice, and freewill.

If we try to go the other way round, and try to harmonize God's omnibenevolence with His gratuitous punishment and destruction of sinners whom He might as easily have continued to bring to repentance, then we seem to be on a fool's errand’ (Steve, ‘Visiting the iniquity’ Dec 20)

I don’t know who it is on a fools errand but if scripture is clear that all the wicked will be cut off, destroyed, cast off, were no more, the doors were locked, and burned like chaff etc, and we somehow excuse these verses as being misunderstood by everyone but Universalists, we are in effect 'ignoring the intent and meaning' of the words.
I have not accused anyone here of ignoring the Words of Moses and the prophets (in fact I did a word search through most all my relevant posts on ignore). What I am saying is that we 'cannot' ignore and 'should not' but I feel that like I stated here;

‘That is why I encourage people to read the Torah (Old Testament) to see what has been fulfilled and to see how they can fulfill it's 'purpose' in their lives. Unfortunately a lot of Christians ignore the Old Testament’, and most likely because they are told that it has no application for them, just because we are not 'under' the law. (Jeremiah 31, thread pg.1)

I feel UR and Preterism would 'lead' people to believe that the many verses of a final judgment, and a final state of, or destruction of the unrepentant are not relevant in their plain meanings, or relevant to us individually, or that they were only relevant to Jerusalem or those in the immediate context, or relevant only to this world.

Final is implied by the implication that it is obvious that not all sinners receive a just punishment in this physical world.
Final is also implied by the words that describe their punishment – death - perish – destroy – crush – slay – blot out – etc, and this language is used regarding The Judgment, and That Great and Terrible Day, etc.

I think that saying hell is refining and restorative would be ignoring the literal implications of destruction, perish, destroy, and fire, the easy to understand obvious language used to describe this eventual place of the wicked, rebellious and unrepentant is rebellious in itself, and I would be fearful of holding such a view.
The answer I get is that that all these verses of death and destroy only refer to the physical death. My argument is that everyone dies, that’s a given, but most everyone dies a normal death of natural causes - sinner and saint alike, so the language of the bible must also refer to, tell of, describe, and ensure us of another death, that is the second death. Which everything leading up to it, and foretelling of it, makes it sound pretty final.
Now lets see, Lake of fire, bride, where was I …. maybe Steve can answer that one for now.

[Paidion]

JR, it is also the case that CI (where repentance and salvation is limited to our time here on earth), evokes emotions, too. And it doesn't do a whole lot to uphold the character of God. Probably over 99% of all people who have ever lived have never had a personal, saving relationship with God during their life time. So why would God bring into being those billions of people—only to annihilate them in the end?

[steve]

we somehow excuse these verses as being misunderstood by everyone but Universalists

The universalists are not the only people who understand these verses differently than you do. The vast majority of traditionalists also disagree with you. Therefore, one might say that your view assumes that everyone misunderstands these verses except for conditionalists. That is, whether they are understood in the conditionalist manner or in the universalist manner, they are equally minority understandings. If true interpretations are determined by counting noses, then the traditional view is clearly the truth. That's not how we should do biblical studies however.

My argument is that everyone dies, that’s a given, but most everyone dies a normal death of natural causes - sinner and saint alike, so the language of the bible must also refer to, tell of, describe, and ensure us of another death, that is the second death.

There is a second death, as all acknowledge. As for to what it refers, there is no consensus. However, your argument does not necessarily prove that the Old Testament verses about death and destruction refer to the second death. While all people die, not all die a "good death" (as martyrs or godly people in general do). Sinners die a "bad death," that is, under God's displeasure. For those who understand what really matters, to die under God's displeasure is the ultimate disaster, regardless what happens after death. In fact, this is very close to the annihilationist's answer to the traditionalist, who says annihilation is no punishment at all.

Now lets see, Lake of fire, bride, where was I …. maybe Steve can answer that one for now.

I doubt if I will be able to answer that one. It is too esoteric. I have no idea what it means.

[jriccitelli]

Paidion I know that lots of doctrines evoke passion and emotion, so you are right.
Gods character is understood by His Word, not by our emotions, you’re right.

Probably over 99% of all people who have ever lived have never had a personal, saving relationship with God during their life time. So why would God bring into being those billions of people—only to annihilate them in the end?

I hope 99% of all people who have ever lived repent and receive a saving relationship with God postmortem, but although I do not know where you get your numbers from, I know I could glean a few numbers from scripture, for one, Jesus says not every one who says to me Lord will inherit eternal life, rather ‘these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life’, and speaking of 99% what was the percentage during Noah’s day? What was the percentage saved in Sodom?

If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that 13 some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom you have not known), 14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword. (Duet.13:12-15)

What was the % for the command above? Note there is no particular city named.

As they were striking the people and I alone was left, I fell on my face and cried out saying, “Alas, Lord GOD! Are You destroying the whole remnant of Israel by pouring out Your wrath on Jerusalem?” 9 Then He said to me, “The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is very, very great, and the land is filled with blood and the city is full of perversion; for they say, ‘The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see!’ 10“But as for Me, My eye will have no pity nor will I spare, but I will bring their conduct upon their heads.” (Ezekiel 9)
Remember Abraham Moses and Paul were all Universalists also, until God reminded them that ‘He’ wasn’t.

He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him;
He will also hear their cry and will save them.
The LORD keeps all who love Him,
But all the wicked He will destroy (Psalm 145:19-20)

But then again He says if he finds one righteous man he might spare a city also, so the motto is don’t take chances of that happening.

[jriccitelli]

The universalists are not the only people who understand these verses differently than you do. The vast majority of traditionalists also disagree with you.

Your right, I agree that everyone disagrees.

‘There is a second death, as all acknowledge. As to what it refers, there is no consensus’

I am not concerned with what the consensusists believe, what I believe is that death means death, resurrected but still dead;

I saw the dead standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The dead remain dead, then they receive a second death, and the rest receive eternal life.
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” Why fear destruction?

[steve7150]

I am not concerned with what the consensusists believe, what I believe is that death means death, resurrected but still dead;

I saw the dead standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The dead remain dead, then they receive a second death, and the rest receive eternal life.






I read this as the "second death" is the lake of fire and i read that death was thrown into the lake of fire. So for me the question is what may happen in the lake of fire. Also interesting is that besides the "book of life" being opened there were other books opened right before that. It's presumed to be a book of a person's deeds but the phrase "books" in the plural was used so it could be the gospels or the books of the bible being preached to the sinner before he goes into the LOF. If that is the case then it must be toward an opportunity for postmortem repentance culminating in Rev 22.14-17.