Luke 13:34
"O, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were NOT willing!"
What could more tenderly portray the nuturing, protecting love of CHRIST? Yes, GOD's righteous right hand must bring judgement and justice. Sin demands it. But HIS tender loving heart longs to hold us in HIS arms and protect us from eternal harm. The cross of Calvary is how HE accomplished both works for those who would find immunity from judgement by trusting in HIS sacrifice.
The heart of GOD is beautifully illustrated in HIS son as HE cries out, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem (HE cries out)
Obedience to out FATHERS commands is the key to immunity from the enemy. Obedience positions us in the shadow of the almighty...Ps 91
1-4.
All who personally receive the grace gift of GOD have immunity from eternal judgement, the judgement that should of come to us came to CHRIST instead.
John 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD
Choose life and live!
I was a street person over 25 yrs ago I had NEVER heard of JESUS
I just saw HIM a few times on the cross in a church.
HE found me when I did not seek HIM.
When you Father and Mother forsake you, the LORD will take care of me.
Psalm 27:10
I believe GOD is so just and NO unrighteousness in HIM that ALL who choose can come freely as HE knocks....... Its man's pride that causes himself to turn away from such love.............................
YES, free will/choice
God Bless,
Steve's response to challenges raised by Mark & Dusman
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calvanism/arminianism
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And it is also man's pride that thinks what makes him a Christian and his next door neighbor not a Christian, is His better decision to accept Christ.
He did something with his will that his unbelieving neighbor did not do!
What pride is that?
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
There is no such thing as free will. It is a lie of the Devil that started in the garden and still flourishes.
Free grace not free will.
Mark
He did something with his will that his unbelieving neighbor did not do!
What pride is that?
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
There is no such thing as free will. It is a lie of the Devil that started in the garden and still flourishes.
Free grace not free will.
Mark
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calvanism/arminisnism
Pls read Revelation 3:20 and Rev 3:21
Deut 30:19 speaks about Choose life
Sometimes I envy those who feel all we have to do is be saved and thats
it....I am a person who always falls short in some areas yet I repent
and wait for the LORD to change me, I am unable to do it alone. I do believe we choose to obey or disobey and as obedient children always
willing to do the right way but realizing sin stands in our ways/flesh/devil/world.
I am not trying to convince anyone because according to 1 corth 13
love is the highest. We are brothers and sisters and remain in HIS love.
GOD BLESS
Deut 30:19 speaks about Choose life
Sometimes I envy those who feel all we have to do is be saved and thats
it....I am a person who always falls short in some areas yet I repent
and wait for the LORD to change me, I am unable to do it alone. I do believe we choose to obey or disobey and as obedient children always
willing to do the right way but realizing sin stands in our ways/flesh/devil/world.
I am not trying to convince anyone because according to 1 corth 13
love is the highest. We are brothers and sisters and remain in HIS love.
GOD BLESS
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Mark,
You are right. I have been busy. I have been on the road steadily for six weeks. Getting time on the internet isn't easy at such times. Also, answering you has not proved to be the most profitable use of my time, when such presents itself. This is because you make statements like the ones above ("It is man's pride that thinks [he is a Christian because of] his better decision to accept Christ," and "free-wil...is a lie of the devil"), which are Calvinist catch-phrases, but which are not self-evidently true, nor scriptural, and can not be demonstrated to be true. Your approach to scripture seems too colored by Calvinist lenses for us to have a reasonable scriptural dialogue, so please pardon me if I spend more of my time in profitable things.
For the record (not speaking for anyone other than myself), I am not proud of making the right decision for God (in fact, I am ashamed of how many wrong decisions I have made and still make). Pride has nothing to do with my choosing to believe in Christ. For me, the right decision—given the mighty incentives and persuasions that God brought into my life—was a no-brainer. Nothing to congratulate myself about.
First Corinthians 4:7 is not relevant to this matter, since it is a rebuke to people who are boasting. I have not heard anyone boasting about having made "a better decision" than someone else made. If I were to encounter such a strange person, I would probably quote that verse to him. This certainly isn't the attitude of myself or other non-Calvinists that I have known. It is uncharitable and strange for you to attribute such motives to people whom you do not know, and who exhibit nothing of the trait you are accusing them of.
My attitude vis-a-vis the neighbor who is currently making the wrong decisions is not one of pride in my own decision, but of pity for him who has apparently not seen clearly enough (for any number of reasons) the grace and the judgment of God, or who has not cared about such things, which might otherwise induce him to make the sane decision that an open-minded (and humble) child can make. This man has been blinded by Satan (2 Cor.4:3-4), not by God, and he is to be pitied.
In this, my attitude is different from that of the Calvinist's god, who does not pity my neighbor for his blindness, but who has unilaterally blinded him and forbidden him to believe, so that that god may have the "good pleasure" (to quote Calvin) of damning him. This god, thankfully, never inspired any part of the Bible I read, and I will have to leave you to find him wherever you may.
You are right. I have been busy. I have been on the road steadily for six weeks. Getting time on the internet isn't easy at such times. Also, answering you has not proved to be the most profitable use of my time, when such presents itself. This is because you make statements like the ones above ("It is man's pride that thinks [he is a Christian because of] his better decision to accept Christ," and "free-wil...is a lie of the devil"), which are Calvinist catch-phrases, but which are not self-evidently true, nor scriptural, and can not be demonstrated to be true. Your approach to scripture seems too colored by Calvinist lenses for us to have a reasonable scriptural dialogue, so please pardon me if I spend more of my time in profitable things.
For the record (not speaking for anyone other than myself), I am not proud of making the right decision for God (in fact, I am ashamed of how many wrong decisions I have made and still make). Pride has nothing to do with my choosing to believe in Christ. For me, the right decision—given the mighty incentives and persuasions that God brought into my life—was a no-brainer. Nothing to congratulate myself about.
First Corinthians 4:7 is not relevant to this matter, since it is a rebuke to people who are boasting. I have not heard anyone boasting about having made "a better decision" than someone else made. If I were to encounter such a strange person, I would probably quote that verse to him. This certainly isn't the attitude of myself or other non-Calvinists that I have known. It is uncharitable and strange for you to attribute such motives to people whom you do not know, and who exhibit nothing of the trait you are accusing them of.
My attitude vis-a-vis the neighbor who is currently making the wrong decisions is not one of pride in my own decision, but of pity for him who has apparently not seen clearly enough (for any number of reasons) the grace and the judgment of God, or who has not cared about such things, which might otherwise induce him to make the sane decision that an open-minded (and humble) child can make. This man has been blinded by Satan (2 Cor.4:3-4), not by God, and he is to be pitied.
In this, my attitude is different from that of the Calvinist's god, who does not pity my neighbor for his blindness, but who has unilaterally blinded him and forbidden him to believe, so that that god may have the "good pleasure" (to quote Calvin) of damning him. This god, thankfully, never inspired any part of the Bible I read, and I will have to leave you to find him wherever you may.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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Mark:
As a fellow Calvinist, I must say I am somewhat dismayed at the apparent attitude and flippancy in which you say things.
How do you know it is pride that makes one think one thing and someone else another? I have met and fellowshipped with many Arminians and Calvinists alike, both who seem to indicate their salvation is a humbling and grateful experience, whether they belive in free will or not.
Most people feel their will is involved, even a Calvinist. We all make choices and whether those choices are necessitated are not, the real bone of contention is a difference between cause and effect. The problem is there is so much mud slinging and ad hominum/ad vericundium arguing going on that everything gets muddled and meaningful dialogue can't happen. A shame.
You may not be aware that there is still a huge debate within the Calvinist camp over whether Adam had free will or not. The Supralapsarians (Adam didn't have free will) and the infralapsarians (Adam had free will) have great scholars in each respective arena. And even the supras believe we make free choices, but that our will is not in a vaccuum and uninfluenced.
How would you possibly prove that the lie of free will started in the garden of Eden, especially with a large Calvinist camp saying that Adam had free will? Lorainne Boettner advocated this position.
I've seen pride on both sides of the issue and that has to be determined, if it's even possible, by a given individual, not a blanket statement that covers all people at all times.
Though I am a Calvinist, and debate the issues frequently, I'd rather have my time spent on daily living for Christ and showing forth his love than getting caught up in name calling and seeing who can win the most points in a debate. Don't misunderstand me, debate is good, but only where there is a true meaningful dialogue going on with scripture as the final authority.
In the final analysis, whether I beieve in free will or not, I can't imagine it would change how I live my life for Christ. It may only help me understand the universe I live in a little better.
Would appreciate your, or any, remarks.
In His Love,
Tim
As a fellow Calvinist, I must say I am somewhat dismayed at the apparent attitude and flippancy in which you say things.
How do you know it is pride that makes one think one thing and someone else another? I have met and fellowshipped with many Arminians and Calvinists alike, both who seem to indicate their salvation is a humbling and grateful experience, whether they belive in free will or not.
Most people feel their will is involved, even a Calvinist. We all make choices and whether those choices are necessitated are not, the real bone of contention is a difference between cause and effect. The problem is there is so much mud slinging and ad hominum/ad vericundium arguing going on that everything gets muddled and meaningful dialogue can't happen. A shame.
You may not be aware that there is still a huge debate within the Calvinist camp over whether Adam had free will or not. The Supralapsarians (Adam didn't have free will) and the infralapsarians (Adam had free will) have great scholars in each respective arena. And even the supras believe we make free choices, but that our will is not in a vaccuum and uninfluenced.
How would you possibly prove that the lie of free will started in the garden of Eden, especially with a large Calvinist camp saying that Adam had free will? Lorainne Boettner advocated this position.
I've seen pride on both sides of the issue and that has to be determined, if it's even possible, by a given individual, not a blanket statement that covers all people at all times.
Though I am a Calvinist, and debate the issues frequently, I'd rather have my time spent on daily living for Christ and showing forth his love than getting caught up in name calling and seeing who can win the most points in a debate. Don't misunderstand me, debate is good, but only where there is a true meaningful dialogue going on with scripture as the final authority.
In the final analysis, whether I beieve in free will or not, I can't imagine it would change how I live my life for Christ. It may only help me understand the universe I live in a little better.
Would appreciate your, or any, remarks.
In His Love,
Tim
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Tim,
I'll stand with you there. It's true that we should be building up one another in love instead of tearing one another down with mud slinging and premature judgements. All of us should not think of ourselves more highly than those who oppose our views specially on things in the scriptures that are [still] debatable and not so obvious. I believe God made the essentials very obvious in the scriptures i.e. love for and surrender to God and His Christ and love for our brethren.
We can build one another up [more] in this forum by dissecting the 'truth' presented by differing sides and not 'dissecting' the presentors.
Steve,
I really find your debate with Gene Cooks, Jr. profitable as it presents a balanced and informed presentation of the two differing camps. I wonder when will the two of you resume your discussions?
In our Lord,
Richard
I'll stand with you there. It's true that we should be building up one another in love instead of tearing one another down with mud slinging and premature judgements. All of us should not think of ourselves more highly than those who oppose our views specially on things in the scriptures that are [still] debatable and not so obvious. I believe God made the essentials very obvious in the scriptures i.e. love for and surrender to God and His Christ and love for our brethren.
We can build one another up [more] in this forum by dissecting the 'truth' presented by differing sides and not 'dissecting' the presentors.
Steve,
I really find your debate with Gene Cooks, Jr. profitable as it presents a balanced and informed presentation of the two differing camps. I wonder when will the two of you resume your discussions?
In our Lord,
Richard
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Your both right sort of.....
I think that in the extremes both views are wrong although there is truth in both when not exaggerated. I think a lot of the debate is based on the extremes of both sides. Due to the limited undertanding of man we get caught in trying to interpret divine truth which cannot be resovled here and a great polarization often occurs. Does God send people to hell by chooseing some and not others, clearly the answer is no. Did God know us ( the saved ) before the foundations of the world, the answer is clearly yes. Because we cant completely understand this truth here, only proves to me that we will understand it in heaven someday, when we know as we are known as Paul said, but now we see as through a glass darkely. The best explanation of the issue I ever heard was very simple yet profound.When entering the gates of heaven all believers will pass under an arch and on the front side is written "WHO SO EVER WILL MAY COME" and on the otherside overhead was written " FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE PREDESTINED". Surely throughout the ages greater minds than those represented here have not provided enough satisfactory evidence to rest the arguement conclusively. It will forever be the great debate unsolved and primarlily because Gods truth is found in both yet men cant this side of heaven reconile the two. And to that I say Amen with a thankful heart....imagine if we understood it all. Remember love edifies but knowledge puffs up.
Lord Bless
Steve
Lord Bless
Steve
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Calvinism & God
Hi Anyone!
The Calvinist view seems to derogate the person of both God the Father and Jesus. It seems to me that if man was created without free will in regard to faith in God, then God could not take a chance in being rejected. God would be in need of us. However it is my understanding that God does not need us for anything; see Acts 17:24-25. Does Calvinism present a picture of a "weak" God or a "strong" God?
Also when Jesus looked down on Jerusalem and wept over sinners who would not repent, was Jesus insincere (a hypocrite) or just ignorant regarding their predestination? I do not understand His behavior if Calvinism is true.
Would be interested in any comments on this, perhaps there is a good answer.
In Christ, Homer
The Calvinist view seems to derogate the person of both God the Father and Jesus. It seems to me that if man was created without free will in regard to faith in God, then God could not take a chance in being rejected. God would be in need of us. However it is my understanding that God does not need us for anything; see Acts 17:24-25. Does Calvinism present a picture of a "weak" God or a "strong" God?
Also when Jesus looked down on Jerusalem and wept over sinners who would not repent, was Jesus insincere (a hypocrite) or just ignorant regarding their predestination? I do not understand His behavior if Calvinism is true.
Would be interested in any comments on this, perhaps there is a good answer.
In Christ, Homer
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A Berean
Will the real Calvminan please stand up
Chuck Smith seems to have arrived at a good conclusion in his thinking on the matter of when he says "It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds." To me this is what lies at the crux of the issue and folks finer spiritual thinkers than those who post here have never resolved the issue regarding the sovereignty of God and human responsibility.Hence the two camps and thier satisfaction on the correct understanding and glee in being seperate from those in error on the other side. I like the scripture that says steel sharpens steel and carrying that into its next logical deduction, that thoughts can sharpen thoughts when brought into the arena of comparison and debate.Yet spiritual egos can also sharpen spiritual egos and this we should be cautious of. Some debates and this GREAT DEBATE may be one are never going to be concluded this side of heaven. Which then can and Im not saying that this is the case here,lead to contentious debates which leave the Christian feeling great about stroking his Christian ego yet never solving the unsolvable issue . I think spiritual pride is something we all need to gaurd against and it especially can emerge when we are out to defend a truth we just know is right. I personally feel this side of heaven that these two great issues of the soviergnty of God and human free will wont be reconciled here and although debating is sometimes profitable we need to understand a brother or sister isnt a brother or sister based on accepting our teaching on this issue but of faith in Jesus Christ. I also think that in the extreme both Calvanism and Armenianism loose traction with Gods words of Whosoever will may come and Those whom He foreknew He predestined. So I guess Im a Calvminian...Steve
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Will the real Calvminan please stand up
Chuck Smith seems to have arrived at a good conclusion in his thinking on the matter of when he says "It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds." To me this is what lies at the crux of the issue and folks finer spiritual thinkers than those who post here have never resolved the issue regarding the sovereignty of God and human responsibility.Hence the two camps and thier satisfaction on the correct understanding and glee in being seperate from those in error on the other side. I like the scripture that says steel sharpens steel and carrying that into its next logical deduction, that thoughts can sharpen thoughts when brought into the arena of comparison and debate.Yet spiritual egos can also sharpen spiritual egos and this we should be cautious of. Some debates and this GREAT DEBATE may be one are never going to be concluded this side of heaven. Which then can and Im not saying that this is the case here,lead to contentious debates which leave the Christian feeling great about stroking his Christian ego yet never solving the unsolvable issue . I think spiritual pride is something we all need to gaurd against and it especially can emerge when we are out to defend a truth we just know is right. I personally feel this side of heaven that these two great issues of the soviergnty of God and human free will wont be reconciled here and although debating is sometimes profitable we need to understand a brother or sister isnt a brother or sister based on accepting our teaching on this issue but of faith in Jesus Christ. I also think that in the extreme both Calvanism and Armenianism loose traction with Gods word and Whosoever will may come and Those whom He foreknew He predestined seem hard for us to bring together but God has no problem with at all. So I guess what Ive suspected all along is true...Im a calvminian....STEVE
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