Sprinkle vs. Immerse

[Allyn]

I just would like to point out that when the thief on the cross beside Christ accepted Christ, He was never baptized with the water nor with blood.

Paul, how do you know this? How do you know that he hadn't repented of his sins, and been been baptized by Christ (or rather, by Christ's apostles)? The law may have caught up with him much later, and sentenced him to the cross. Perhaps that is why he asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom instead of behaving like the other who said, "If you are the Messiah, save yourself and us!"

Paidion, How was the thief baptized with the blood of the Lamb if the Lamb was still living? Paul did make that a condition within his comment.

[Michelle]

I just would like to point out that when the thief on the cross beside Christ accepted Christ, He was never baptized with the water nor with blood.

Paul, how do you know this? How do you know that he hadn't repented of his sins, and been been baptized by Christ (or rather, by Christ's apostles)? The law may have caught up with him much later, and sentenced him to the cross. Perhaps that is why he asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom instead of behaving like the other who said, "If you are the Messiah, save yourself and us!"

Paidion, How was the thief baptized with the blood of the Lamb if the Lamb was still living? Paul did make that a condition within his comment.

Well, maybe Jesus died first, since when the soldiers came to break their legs, they discovered that Jesus was already dead. But maybe the thief wasn't dead yet and died after his legs were broken. Maybe.

[Paidion]

Allyn, I didn't say anything about "being baptized with the blood of the Lamb", whatever that means. I indicated that the thief may have been one of the many disciples whom "Jesus made and baptized" John 4:1. Anyone who was or is a disciple of Christ, having been baptized, belongs to Him.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Matthew 28:19,20

There are a couple of verses in revelation about the blood of the lamb --- the first one speaks symbolically about washing one's robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb, and the second about conquering the accuser of the brethren by the blood of the lamb. But I searched and have found no passage about "being baptized with the blood of the lamb".

[SteveF]

I'm inclined to think the thief had a revelation of Christ while he was on the cross. Matthew records that he was mocking him at one point:

Mat 27:44 And the robbers (plural) who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

It's hard for me to picture him receiving John's baptism and then later reviling Christ. It's not out of the question since he may have had a lapse in his faith. I do think it's more natural to see this as his moment of repentance though. As with many things we find in scripture we're left to speculate.

[Allyn]

Allyn, I didn't say anything about "being baptized with the blood of the Lamb", whatever that means. I indicated that the thief may have been one of the many disciples whom "Jesus made and baptized" John 4:1. Anyone who was or is a disciple of Christ, having been baptized, belongs to Him.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Matthew 28:19,20

There are a couple of verses in revelation about the blood of the lamb --- the first one speaks symbolically about washing one's robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb, and the second about conquering the accuser of the brethren by the blood of the lamb. But I searched and have found no passage about "being baptized with the blood of the lamb".

I know you didn't say that but you were responding to Pauls question in which he made that as part of the question.

[paulespino]

What I was trying to say is that there are no indications that the thief was ever baptize and yet he was saved because he accepted Christ. Therefore the main ingredients to our salvation is the finished works of Christ coupled with our change of mind ( repentance ). Baptism is just a spice but our salvation can still be complete without baptism of the water.

[Allyn]

What I was trying to say is that there are no indications that the thief was ever baptize and yet he was saved because he accepted Christ. Therefore the main ingredients to our salvation is the finished works of Christ coupled with our change of mind ( repentance ). Baptism is just a spice but our salvation can still be complete without baptism of the water.

Hi Paul - good to see you.
I think that Baptism with water is a requirement according to Scripture in order to meet all God has in mind for His children but not a salvation issue per se - however, when was it never done in the early church? I wouldn't want to be the one to test it.
I did understand you concerning the thief but I think I could explain that once I got my notes together. Maybe I will when I am more freed up.

[paulespino]

Thanks, Allyn.

[paulespino]

Take your time Allyn I know your busy I'm sure others can pitch in.

[Paidion]

What I was trying to say is that there are no indications that the thief was ever baptize and yet he was saved because he accepted Christ.

Neither is there any indication that he "accepted Christ". All he did was to indicate to the other thief that they deserved death, but that Jesus did nothing wrong, and then to ask Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom. True, "accepting Christ" is a modern, fundamentalist, evangelical term, but you never find it in Scripture. What you find in the teaching of John the Baptizer, Christ, Peter, and Paul, is the necessity to repent (have a change of heart and mind) and be baptized.

In the "great commission" which Jesus gave His disciples, did He say anything about instructing people to "accept Christ"? Or did He instruct them to "make disciples" and to "baptize them"?

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you... Matthew 28:19,20

Therefore the main ingredients to our salvation is the finished works of Christ coupled with our change of mind ( repentance ).

Where do you find any Scripture which states that we must "trust in the finished works of Christ" in order to be saved?

Did Peter instruct those who were responsible for Christ's death to "accept Him" or to "trust in His finished work"? Or did he instruct them to repent and be baptized?

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is just a spice but our salvation can still be complete without baptism of the water.

But you cannot find even a single Scripture to support this position, can you?

He who believes and is baptized will be saved. Mark 16:16

... baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but a request to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21