The Biblical Meaning Of Grace

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:06 pm

Haas,

I do not believe that Jesus and Paul's teaching on grace are in conflict at all. It all flows first from God through the Holy Spirit to the inspired writers.

So you would agree there may be conditions attached to grace? If not how would you address Jesus' teaching?

Blessings, Homer

Post by **__id_1887** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:47 pm

Hey Homer,

You wrote:

So you would agree there may be conditions attached to grace? If not how would you address Jesus' teaching?

I don't see Matthew 18:21-35 as teaching conditional grace. I think Jesus was teaching Peter (believers) that one who has been forgiven will express a forgiving heart ( I certainly see this as possible in my life as a believer and more and more possible as God sanctifies me).

The flipside would be that an unforgiving heart is sure evidence of an unforgiven heart. I don't see that Jesus is saying "Hey Peter, you need to forgive people in order to be a recipient of my grace. Peter was following Christ, but he had not yet seen the magnitude of God's grace and the practical application of that in his life. I mean Peter thought that forgiving someone 7 times should be the limit.

When I consider my own heart prior to God's radical work in my life. No hope. No life. No righteousness. No pure motives. Nada.....nothing. Now as I consider my life in Christ. I am totally dependent on him. I have nothing apart from Christ. His grace has meant everything to me. If I have a forgiving heart, it is because Christ has given me a new heart. I am thrilled to see God changing me more and more as He prepares me for all eternity. Sometimes I wish I could push a sanctification button and speed up the process, but God knows best.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Resting in Christ,

Haas

Post by **_Homer** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:42 am

Haas,

Your answer was not unexpected. So you are saying:

1. A born again Christian will always forgive others without fail, or

2. If they do fail to forgive, they were never a Christian.

If that is not what you meant please explain.

What do you see as the point of the parable? Why did Jesus include the part about the forgiven man being thrown into prison because he would not forgive another? Why would He have included that in the parable if #1 & #2 above are true?

I do not believe that Jesus immediately casts away one of His who does not forgive someone; but if the person fails to respond to the convicting work of the Spirit with the Word, what hope has he? The repeated warnings regarding this matter should make this clear.

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:26 pm

Free your mind.

I have read Wright for years and am familiar with his teachings.
Have you?

Also, having a free mind means what exactly?
You made many assertions from scripture aimed my way about being "open" etc. What exactly are you saying?

And Homer, regarding grace and conditions etc, are you aware of the idea that some things in scripture are "descriptive" rather than "prescriptive".
If you miss the distinction, you will err my friend, and err in a big way!

Haas has brought to your attention just how "descriptive" the passages are that you cited (describing the actions of believers), whereas you seem to interpret them as "prescriptive" ( How one becomes a believer, IE prescriptive)

Again, it is the difference between grace and works, depending on how you understand these distinctions.

Post by **_Homer** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:45 pm

Mark,

So you would say that in the parable of the unmerciful servant Jesus is describing what a Christian will naturally do - not that He would demand that they do it or anything. Sounds like a dodge to me. I have never heard a Calvinist or OSAS yet who could explain how Jesus could demand this:

Matthew 6:14-15 (New King James Version)

14. “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

There you have your presciptive (v.14) and descriptive (v.15) neatly packaged in two verses!

Post by **__id_1887** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:09 pm

Homer,

1. A born again Christian will always forgive others without fail

No, not initially anyway (who knows if Jonah went to the grave with his bad attitude?).

I have considered that for a believer (say for a momment that the first servant is representing a believer) that knows beyond a doubt that they need to forgive someone and stubbornly won't; this person is in a "prison" and unable to enjoy the freedom of experiencing God's grace for that time.

Have you ever known a Christian brother or sister (or maybe you experienced this yourself) that held onto a grudge and wouldn't forgive? Pretty miserable time for that person (again, I think of Jonah). Not a whole lot of peace and rest in Christ's grace during this time. Kind of like a "prison".

On the other hand, if someone just wants and expects the benefits of Christ's forgiveness for themselves, but never shows this toward others.....I don't have a problem saying they are not a Christian (by their fruit they shall be known).

Have a blessed night Homer,

Haas

Post by **_Christopher** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:33 pm

Hi Mark,

I have read Wright for years and am familiar with his teachings.
Have you?

Nope. Just starting to. I guess if you are that familiar with what he believes, you should "jolly well" be able to take something he teaches and show us how he's "batting on a sticky wicket"

rather than simply expressing baseless (thus far) and empty disapproval...Hmm?

Also, having a free mind means what exactly?
You made many assertions from scripture aimed my way about being "open" etc. What exactly are you saying?

Meaning we ought to reserve judgment based on what is factual rather than whether or not it fits into the commitment of our present theological paradigm. How often did Jesus say "..he who has ears, let him hear" and "..if you can receive it"? The truth sets free...remember? (John 8:31-32).

If Wright is wrong, then what is right should reveal the wrongness of Wright...right?.

Your criticism of Wright consisted of nothing more than an ad hominem attack and not anything that even closely resembles an objective refutation of his views.

You may very well be correct that he errs in his understanding of scripture, but I, for one, have not reached that conclusion as of yet and I reserve the right to make up my own mind on that.

You criticize the forum for allowing viewpoints to be expressed that you find "heretical", but that only reveals a naive commitment to the traditions of men IMO.

Again I say, Free your mind

.

g'day.