what of the incarnation?

[Guest]

Well Homer it tells me you are so indoctrinated with the trinity formulated between 325 and 500

I am going to stick to ignoring your copy/paste response but I do think that this comment needs to be addressed.

It is a common tactic of those that wish to strip the Lord Jesus of His diety to make this statement about the trinity.

I would just say that no one denies that the doctrine was not articulated until the 4th century. But that does not mean that it did not exist.

The articulation of a belief and the actually reality of that belief are two very different things.

In other words. The statement doesn't prove anything.

And as an aside, telling people they are "indoctinated", "full of useless information", calling people "smart guy" (before your copy/paste response of another persons work) doesn't prove anything either (aside from exposing your need to attack your opposition personally due to the weakness of your position).

[_Jesusfollower]

So aside from attacking me and my ministry personally, The question posed earlier was what is your problem with the simple truth of the Bible? And you say it strips Jesus of his Deity. OK, I say by claiming him to be God almighty incarnate you actually diminish what he accomplished. As a man he defeated the devil by keeping himself pure and trusting his very life to God, and God came through and not only raised him from the dead but exalted him to Lord. That every knee shall bow to the name of Jesus, starting a Little lower than the angles he is now above them. You will find that in Hebrews. Kid, if you do not look at the evidence, what does that say about you and your theology? there is no weakness to my position. The trinity did not exist, the Apostles knew nothing of it, including John, who wrote 1,2,3 John to clarify the errors that arose from misunderstanding John, in those you will find any that deny Jesus has come in the flesh(is a Man) are anti-Christ. But of course you manipulate that around to support your unbiblical position. So I say you do not look at the evidence and therefore we are running in circles, and no further dialog is required. NO INCARNATION IN SCRIPTURE.

[Guest]

no further dialog is required

*shakes dust off feet*

OK by me.

[_Jesusfollower]

Doesn't the teaching that Jesus is not God, but the Son of God, demean him?

We believe that the doctrine that Jesus is God actually diminishes the magnitude of his heroism on our behalf. For God to do what Jesus did? Obviously it wouldn't have been hard for Him. And what would we expect God to do but be true to His nature and inherent perfection?

Does the teaching that Jesus is the Son of God, not God himself, demean him?

Q: Doesn't the teaching that Jesus is not God, but the Son of God, demean him and make him smaller in people's eyes?

Good question. The answer is: “No, it makes him bigger.”

But let's think about it. First of all, the real issue is not who Jesus is not, but who he is. If I introduce myself to you by saying, “Hi, I'm not Elvis Presley,” you are left with a major question: “Why is he not institutionalized?” No, the question is: “Who are you?” Knowing who someone is not doesn't tell you who he is, but knowing who he is tells you everyone he is not.

The Word of God makes it clear that Satan's primary goal is to blind people to the truth about JESUS CHRIST, because he is the only way to salvation, and because he is the perfect re-presentation of God's heart for mankind. 2 Corinthians 4:4 says just that: “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

God is spirit, and Satan doesn't have to “blind” people to something that is invisible. But he does all he can to blind people to the glorious image of God, Jesus Christ. His chief goal is to stop people from believing in Jesus as Lord and being saved, and to that end he offers a wide variety of lies about Jesus, which millions of well meaning people have believed.

But Satan obviously cannot turn everyone away from the truth that Jesus is the Savior, and millions of other people do believe and are saved. That in no way dissuades the Enemy from his main goal: distorting as much of the truth about Jesus Christ as he possibly can. The Devil has succeeded in obscuring key truth about Jesus for most Christians by way of the spurious idea that Jesus is God in human flesh, a God-man who is 100% God and 100% man. At best, this is 200% puzzling.

At least, it negates one's genuine identification with Jesus as a man who had to trust God and live by faith, just as we are asked to do. Follow my logic now as we think about how both truth and error relate to one's quality of life, and consider what might be the practical consequences of thinking that Jesus is God in human flesh. If this doctrine is actually from the Enemy, what is his goal in trying to get people to believe it?

At this juncture, John 8:32 is a key verse: “And you shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” Ever thought about the converse to that statement? Wouldn't it be that believing error puts one in bondage to some degree? Absolutely. Suppose you were locked in California, but no one told you that. You could go through your whole life without realizing any practical consequence of this restriction, providing that you never needed to leave California. But what if you got a phone call that your filthy rich aunt in Iowa just died and left you $8 billion, and all you had to do to claim it was go there and sign for it? And that via an eccentric stipulation in her will, if you didn't, you'd be hung? Bondage.

As opposed to being locked in California, what if you were locked in a two by two by six foot box? That bondage would be much more noticeable, right? The quality of your life would be much more obviously and painfully diminished.

Spiritually, it is important to note that the importance of the subject in question determines the degree of bondage for the one who is in the dark about it. If you think there were two sheep on Noah's ark (the Bible says 14), it will probably not wreck Thursday for you. But if you think that God sends sickness to purify you, and that He also determines the time of your death, you may not make it to Thursday. [For further study read Don't Blame God!]

If Jesus were God, what he did would not mean that much, because nothing is hard for God. Neither could he have been tempted in all ways as we are so that we can now relate to him and identify with him in that.

The truth is that Jesus was tempted far beyond what any of us will ever experience, because Satan threw everything he had at the Son of God, who was God's only hope for man's redemption. And Jesus responded by “entrusting himself to God” (1 Pet. 2:23), just as he now asks us to do. He really did live by faith, that is, by trusting the promises of His Father. Never did Jesus allow fear to cause him to sin by looking anywhere but God for what he needed. Never did he allow pride to dictate an ungodly response on his part. Never did self-pity distort his perspective of reality to the end that he became depressed under the burden of mankind's sins. If Jesus is God, we have no real example of faith. [For further study, read For the Joy that was set before him.]

By the way, the fact that Jesus (the Last Adam) had no sin nature is not why he did not sin. How do we know that? Because Adam #1 had no sin nature, and he sinned royally. Each had genuine free will, and Jesus did not sin because he chose not to. And when Scripture says that he was tempted in all ways as we are, it means that he felt the same internal pull toward lust, self-defense, self-pity, etc., as we do, but time after time he subjugated it and chose to respond in a godly way.

The idea of the Trinity muddies the waters in regard to many other critical biblical topics, but let us focus on the FAQ at hand. We believe that the doctrine that Jesus is God actually diminishes the magnitude of his heroism on our behalf. For God to do what Jesus did? Obviously it wouldn't have been hard for Him. And what would we expect God to do but be true to His nature and inherent perfection?

But for a human being to face knucklehead humanity as well as Satan's subtle ploys umpteen times a day for his whole life and never respond sinfully, and then to endure about 40 hours of indescribable torture (how much pent up demonic fury do you think was unleashed on Jesus from Monday night through Wednesday morning?) and then hang on the Cross for six hours of excruciating agony while still focusing on Scripture he had to fulfill—and forgiving those who were killing him?? THANK YOU!!! I love you for that!

Oh, by the way, he said that we human being believers, biblically called his “brothers” (same Father, you know — Heb. 2:11), can be and do like he was and did. Think about that, because it is that kind of identification with him that Satan does not want you to have.

If we become like Jesus, do you think we will stand out among other people? Well, did he? What was the testimony of those who encountered him? “We've never seen a guy like this.” “We've never heard anyone speak like this.” Especially in the Gospel of John, the word “glory” is often used in regard to Jesus, and the Greek word is interesting. Bullinger's Lexicon says it means “not the object itself, but the appearance of the object that attracts attention.” Think about a bowl of apples. Take one and polish it for a minute. Put it back in the bowl. What might someone say when he sees the bowl? “Look at that apple!” Not because it is an apple (that's no big deal), but because of its appearance compared to the other apples.

Ditto for Jesus. “Look at that man!” Not because he was a man, that was commonplace. But because of how his way of being and his words and deeds stood out compared to those around him. Had he been God, that luster would be greatly diminished, but seeing the truth that he was, and is, the Son of God, The Man among men, we can say with awe, respect, and gratitude, WHAT A MAN!!! And we can be like him.

Recommended Reading:

One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith

Click here to read more of this book online!

Other great articles related to this topic:

For The Joy That Was Set Before Him

Understanding the Trinity - Difficult Verses

Is Jesus God? - Logical questions that need answers

The Doctrine of the Double Nature of Christ

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God Bless you with truth Derek.

[Guest]

Paidion,

Attempted to respond to your questions but somehow my response got lost. you asked:

"So I want to ask two final questions. Jesus prayed a lot to His Father. If God is a single Individual, and Jesus is that divine Individual, then to whom was He praying?

The second question. Doesn't the following passage indicate that Jesus Himself recognized that the Father and He were two distinct Individuals? That He and His Father comprise TWO witnesses in keeping with the Mosaic law?"

Perhaps this will not seem logical, but here is some of my belief on this matter:

1. Jesus existed as "the Word" prior to His incarnation. I believe the Apostle John, inspired by the Holy Spirit, chose the most appropriate term available to describe His prior existance.

2. Through "the Word" all was created that has been created.

3. God the Father and "the Word", now Jesus, are coeternal, or coeval if you will, along with the Spirit. Within God, there is both unity and diversity. God did not create us because He was alone, as He was never "alone". He never needed us for anything (Acts 17:25).

5. Since the incarnation, Jesus is and will forever be "the Son".

6. When Jesus became man He emptied Himself to the extent He totally depended upon the Father for His power. This power came upon Him at His baptism. Jesus prayed to the Father just as we do; there was real communication.

7. Jesus knew who He was from His youth by faith - perfect faith.

8. Jesus, being found in human form, was subject to temptation just as we are; He could have sinned but never did. If this is not so, I fail to see how He could be an example to us.

9. With God being "in heaven" and Jesus on earth in human form, I have no problem seeing two witnesses.

These things I believe until shown from scripture otherwise. I accept the testimony of scripture even though it may at times seem paradoxical or contradictory to us. We are finite and God is not. "We'll understand it all bye and bye" (Farther Along - may seem to be a sentimental old song but its a family favorite that speaks profound truth).

[Guest]

Hi everyone, sorry I haven't posted lately.

I spent the weekend in Devon, and will be flying out to Australia this Saturday for a 3-week holiday Down Under.

Consequently, I have no time to spend on this thread at the moment, but will pick it up again when I return (or possibly even while I'm in Australia!)

In the meantime, my interpretation of Philippians 2 is presented in detail here, along with responses to common objections.

Other "pre-existence" passages are also covered: John 1:1-14 (here and here), Colossians 1 (here) and John 8:58 (here) while my response to the standard Trinitarian argument from Hebrews 1 can be found here.

See you in a few weeks! 8)