"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[Guest]

Was God any less loving in His character when He destroyed the world with the Flood? Lots of babies were drowned, women, the elderly, animals were all swept away. Now I don't have a clue as to what the worlds population was at the time, but lets say for arguments sake it was 900 million. The account in Genesis tells us only 8 were spared! So what percentage of people were destroyed to those saved do you come up with?

I am not answering for Steve7150, but I think he would agree that there is a infinite amount of difference (literally) between over 99% of people being killed physically, and over 99% of people being tormented eternally.

Death is a transition to the afterlife (whether immediately or at the resurrection). But eternal torment is ..... eternal torment!

If the latter were true, and over 99% of all people will enter into it, then who is the victor? Christ? Or Satan?

[Guest]

Todd,

Thanks for your reply.

Since you've decided to let the thread be; I want to thank you for making me look at what I believe anew and afresh.

I grew up in a Pentecostal home where "prophecy" was often the big topic for discussion on Saturday nites after church, pizza & cokes. I remember when from the time I could begin to reason I would stay awake after I had to go to bed (maybe 5 years old & up) and listen intently to the men discussing/debating the Scriptures. I was supposed to go to sleep but was totally fascinated hearing them...and would beg my parents that I could stay up longer. If they said no, I would crack my bedroom door and sit by it and take in every word!

Later in life I went to an Assemblies of God Bible college with plans to go into some kind of full time ministry. It was there that I took a class on Hermeneutics (the art & science of interpretation). Then I applied what I had learned and found out the AoG didn't teach what I thought the Bible does on eschatology! I became an amillennialist during my own study time. I realized I couldn't stay in the AoG and also felt like: "If they made-up dispensationalism...what else have they made up about God?" I became very discouraged and didn't know where to go or what to do.

I won't go into any more details other than to say I went out and bought a 6-pack of beer---even though the college had rules against drinking any alcohol. I thought it might help me "relax" << That ended my Bible college. Then about 20 some odd years later I finally got sober and stayed that way through Jesus...after becoming, well, a very bad person for a long time.

Sometimes I get "touchy" about eschatology. In fact, I can become down-right self-righteous about anything that I think I understand about the Bible and/or theology.

Excerpted from: Pray Before You Post

Pray before You Post

This may be so basic that I should feel like an idiot for bringing it up, but we Christians should probably pray before we write blog posts. Or write comments on the blog posts of others. Or write pretty much anything that other people will see. And I mean really pray. Not "just" the kind of prayerful attitude that we're supposed to have "without ceasing." But we should probably stop what we're doing, go into the closet, close our eyes, fold our hands, and make a clean break from whatever it is we're doing (at least briefly).

I say this because I know I need to do this. When I read blogs that make me angry, and make me want to comment, it's the easiest thing in the world for me to react in the wrong way. Sometimes I shouldn't say what I say. Sometimes I'm wrong. Sometimes I'm right, but I'm just a jerk. Prayer might help me to be more right. But prayer will probably help me to cool off, to be gentler or more loving, to be less arrogant, or to realize that maybe I don't need to say anything at all. And that would be a better testimony to the truth and beauty of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Whether I've been right or wrong, Todd, I apologize for being a jerk!

I've posted "I believe what Paul said" and said you do not. But, as you say, you believe what Paul wrote also...we just interpret him differently.
I still don't agree with your interpretations and can't see how you arrive at them. I'm not sure I fully understand them too. But, like you, I don't want to debate it any more at this time.

Since our exchanges I've found that I don't know as much about eschatology as I thought I did! So, thanks for that also. I tend to see myself as sort of an "expert" in it and now see...I'm not! Not as much as I thought, anyway....

It may surprise you that I don't really think of myself as 'a defender of orthodoxy'. Some of my beliefs are borderline heretical, (if not). My theology is a strange mix of fundamentalism, liberalism, skepticism, and critical realism. I don't know what I really "am"...

I came across to you in a 'Bible-thumping fundy' mode. For that I am sorry...it's no fun being that way either! But there's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. So I'll leave it at that, Todd. And should probably take up the praying before I post (every time)...Praise the Lord for that edit feature...(I've recently deleted some of my out-of-line comments or just didn't say them to begin with. Now wish I had gotten rid of them all)!

You live & learn.....

God bless you, Todd,
Rick

[Guest]

Paidion,

The quote was from the Jewish Encyclopedia (click it for full article).
Rick

[Guest]

Paidion,

You wrote:

If the latter were true, and over 99% of all people will enter into it, then who is the victor? Christ? Or Satan?

I do not get the point when 99% is referenced again and again. What if 51% are saved; who is the "winner" in your eyes? What if the total saved is only 49%?

If what you say is true, and the total is actually 99% cast into hell (where do you get this figure, seems someone made it up for effect), it seems to me the One who consigned them there is the winner regardless. If Satan was able to consign them there you would have an argument.

Satan did not cause them to go there:

14. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:14-15)

Nor is he able to put them there:

28. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Matthew 10:28)

I do not think He speaks of Satan! (That last scripture sounds a bit annihilationist!)

[Guest]

Paidion

Quote: "there is a infinite amount of difference (literally) between over 99% of people being killed physically, and over 99% of people being tormented eternally."

You missed the nuance as well. It is a statement and question about Gods Justice. Steve7150 argued in an earlier post that the Jews had little understanding of eternal damnation or eternal life if any. So coming from that perspective, assuming there is no afterlife, no age to come, and that this life is all we have, was God just in destroying "apparantly innocent" children, elderly, animals etc.. in His righteous wrath in the Flood?
You feel that God would be unjust in seperating the "sheep from the goats" eternally? You feel God would be grossly unjust for punishing sin
eternally for sins commited temporilly? Say what you will Paidion, but you have a problem with God's Justice and what it demands. You can play with word etymologys all you want. But remember something. There are "lurkers" watching all of us here. There are those who really "struggle" with the issue of God's justice. Universalism or shades thereof, give people a "pass" with regard to sin and grossly misrepresent God by insisting that in the end, all will be saved. They may have to suffer a bit. But they ultimately will be forced into repentance and "bend the knee" to Jesus. You and I can give our opinions. But lets not mis-represent our Lord when it comes to His Justice.

Here is a link about the Eternality of Hell; http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm

[Guest]

It really matters little if His justice is meeted out eternally or temporally.



I could'nt disagree more, it makes all the difference in the universe Bob and you misapply the word justice.
You keep bringing up that God destroyed these people or those people and i keep repeating the same answer which is that i have no problem with God destroying anything since God owns us.
But destruction is completely different then eternally continually tormenting the great majority of mankind forever in some hell hole of fire and brimstone.
This is not the God of the OT , Bob. It's not in the book. And it isn't Jesus.

[Guest]

Satan did not cause them to go there


He paid for their ticket.

"Regarding them , the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ , who is the image of God." 2 Cor 4.4





If what you say is true, and the total is actually 99% cast into hell (where do you get this figure, seems someone made it up for effect),
What % of people have made Christ their Lord? I think Jesus called his followers a little flock for a reason.

[Guest]

Hello Steve7150,

Could it be you are too pessimistic regarding the 99%?

Revelation 7:9-17 (New International Version)

9. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10. And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11. All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12. saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13. Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14. I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15. Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16. Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Sounds like lots of folks to me. I realize this probably makes no difference - whether its 1% or 30% who are saved - to your position.

[Guest]

Could it be you are too pessimistic regarding the 99%?

Revelation 7:9-17 (New International Version)

9. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the


Hi Homer, Good point but you also know about the narrow gate that few will go through. So which is it, the great multitude that no man can number or the few going through the narrow gate?
I think it's both , the few in this life the great multitude going through the lake of fire.

[Guest]

Hi Homer, Good point but you also know about the narrow gate that few will go through. So which is it, the great multitude that no man can number or the few going through the narrow gate?
I think it's both , the few in this life the great multitude going through the lake of fire.

I said I was done posting in this thread, but I couldn't keep from commenting on Steve's post.

Isn't it interesting that Paul said...

Rom 2:9
...tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,...

Then in Revelation Chapter 7 we are told of the countless multitude that comes out of "great tribulation" (vs 14).

I agree with Steve7150 that this is the same tribulation, the Lake of Fire.

Todd