Luke 12:33

[Guest]

Hi Wayne,
It's nice to have you here. Your story sounds fascinating, I hope you tell us more. This sentence intrigues me:

It was quite an adventure because, quite frankly, giving up possessions is pretty easy in the face of the dying to yourself required in church community.

Can you tell me more about that?

[Guest]

This sentence intrigues me:

It was quite an adventure because, quite frankly, giving up possessions is pretty easy in the face of the dying to yourself required in church community.

Can you tell me more about that?

Life in community involves giving up one's choices for Christ's kingdom, made tangible in the church-brotherhood. We esteem others more highly than ourselves and become servants to one another. In community I did not decide what I would like to do for employment, I was given a task the community needed to have done. I couldn't decide what or when to eat, I could not go off on my own for a vacation or pleasure drive, I could not, of course, decide where I wanted to live. Daily I had to serve the needs of my brothers and sisters and the needs of the church -not in some spectacular way ministering to the hungry in Africa of preaching the Gospel to the lost in some jungle (unless that's what the church wanted me to do!), but assembling furniture in the wood shop or helping an elderly brother get dressed in the morning or washing dishes or driving brothers and sisters to a wedding.

It's easy to say "not my will but thy will" but when you put yourself in a situation where that is made tangible daily in your relationship to your brothers and sister and their needs, you confront some hard realities.

[Guest]

I have heard Art Katz, who has hundreds of sermons available at sermoindex.net (and who lives in community in Minnesota) talk about the extreme dying to self that must take place living in close community. i believe Paidion has visited his community, if I am not mistaken.

TK

[Guest]

Regarding communal living we have a precedent in the early church, Acts 2:44-45, but where do we find a precept for this? As I mentioned earlier, the earliest Christians continued to own private homes. Paul urged the setting aside , as prospered, a portion to help the poor in Jerusalem which indicates they had their own separate funds. In 1 Timothy 6:17-19 Paul gives commands for the rich and their willingness to share but does not indicate holding private wealth is wrong.

I have understood the early communal precedent to have been caused by the economic and social sanctions no doubt imposed on the early believers. Various Jewish sects, most notably at Qumran, also practiced holding possesions in community. It would be natural for the earliest Christians to respond to their situation in this manner, particularly in light of Jesus' teachings regarding love for one another and the hardship that no doubt was forced upon them.

[Guest]

Wayne, do you still live in a Bruderhoff community? Are you convinced that this group has always followed Christ's leading in all things? Does it do so now?

Homer:

As I mentioned earlier, the earliest Christians continued to own private homes.

Do you have any solid evidence for this idea, Homer?

If you should visit a Hutterite Colony, for the first time, you might also assume that every one owns his own home since every family either lives in a private home or in a duplex. But you would be mistaken. All the homes are communally owned.

I think that no one in our day knows exactly how the first Christian community was set up. However, it appears that the families lived in close proximity, since they fellowshipped daily.

Contrary to what many people think, the early Christian communal system continued for at least two hundred years.

[Guest]

Paidion,

L. Michael White:
Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin.



What kinds of people belong to these early congregations? Who signs up?

Paul's congregations are typically based in individual homes. We call those "house churches" these days. They didn't have church buildings. There probably weren't that many synagogue buildings that one could recognize. Even Jewish communities typically began in homes as well, and in these home congregations or house churches we should imagine a mix of people from across the social spectrum of any Greek city. There's the owner of the house, a kind of wealthy patron. It might be someone like Stephanus or Phoebe. Also the members of their household, family members as well as household slaves and even their clients if they were in a artisan guild. Say tent makers or merchants of some sort. We might typically expect that the household would include not only the immediate family and others around them but even the clients and business partners.... Paul seems to have recognized the opportunity that these house church congregations afforded for getting into the networks of individual relationships that afford to him access to many different people within the Greek city.

Comments?

[Guest]

Wayne, do you still live in a Bruderhoff community? Are you convinced that this group has always followed Christ's leading in all things? Does it do so now?

I do not live in the Bruderhof, I had to leave about 10 years ago. I do not believe they are following Christ, on the contrary, thay have developed a personality cult around their leader, Christoph Arnold, who practices a great deceit and fraud. He has led them away from Christ.

I was put out of the brotherhood for quoting Jesus and suggesting that we ought to do as he says in regard to ex-members. As a result I ended up as an ex-member.

I see you were at Crystal. You may have known some Bruderhof families. Jake Vetter's daughter married a Bruderhof minister (who was also expelled), When were you there?

Wayne

[Guest]

i agree with livingink. there is no record of Jesus telling peter to sell all of his stuff, nor lazarus (who apparently had some cash) for that matter. homer is correct; if we all sell all our possession we would have nothing left to give to God or to anyone else. Jesus is clearly using hyperbole to make the point of "where your heart is, your treasure is."

however, i agree that most of us, including myself, need to pay a lot more attention to the various directions in scripture to take care of those less fortunate, including the poor, widows and orphans. the modern church has "tricked" us into thinking that giving to the church = a fulfillment of these obligations. of course this is simply not true.

TK

In Luke 12 Jesus was addressing all his disciples, including Peter. It struck me as I studied this teaching long ago that in the course of the whole Gospel narrative a theme builds in relationship to the poor and the rich.

Mary's Magnificat:
"He has brought down the powerful from their thrones,
and lifted up the lowly;
he has filled the hungry with good things,
and sent the rich away empty. "

And when Jesus started his ministry at Nazareth he read from Isaiah:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor...."

And the Beatitudes as recorded by Luke:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
‘Blessed are you who are hungry now,
for you will be filled...
‘But woe to you who are rich,
for you have received your consolation.
‘Woe to you who are full now,
for you will be hungry."

And the fact that the poor had "good news" preached to them was one of the signs authenticating the messiah given to John the Baptist.

In light of all that why would one want to be rich? And was this “good news” to the poor just figurative? I don’t think so. Jesus calls his followers to sell their possessions and share with the poor, which is real good news for the poor!

Now I have no doubt that Lazarus and Peter and others knew of this message. Look at how Peter responded when we read about the rich young man (Luke 18) to whom Jesus reiterated his teaching from Luke 12: "Look, we have left our homes and followed you." And Zacchaeus, another rich man, responded appropriately: "Look, half of my possessions, Lord, I will give to the poor; and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will pay back four times as much."

So in light of all this it is no surprise that after the Holy Spirit infilled the believers they took the further step of having "all things common" as recorded in Acts 2 and 4, such that "there were no poor among them".

I think if we truly believe Jesus and the good news of His kingdom we will stop laying up treasures on earth and asking how much we can keep, rather we will, as moved by the Holy Spirit, seek to deliver real good news to the poor, selling posessions and sharing and perhaps we will even try to find ways to go as far as the first church in Jerusalem and have all things common, which seems like a sensible thing to do if you are going to put into practice the things that Jesus taught in this regard.

Wayne

[Guest]

Hi wayne--

wasnt the jerusalem church devastated by poverty very soon after the first few chapters of Acts? in other words, wasnt it a "failed" experiment?

TK

[Guest]

Hi wayne--
wasnt the jerusalem church devastated by poverty very soon after the first few chapters of Acts? in other words, wasnt it a "failed" experiment?
TK

That is commonly claimed, particularly by those who think having 'all things common' is a bad idea and was not blessed by God. But there is no scriptural or historic evidence to back that up. It's true that Paul was taking a collection for the saints in Jerusalem, we don't know though what the specific need was there. It could be that they were overwhelmed with poor, infirmed and aged brothers and sisters -it's all speculation.

Many Christian communities have thrived in an astounding way throughout history.