Jesus is God

[Homer]

Darin,

Do you believe in the preexistence of Jesus? I am unsure, perhaps a memory problem.

[darinhouston]

Darin,

Do you believe in the preexistence of Jesus? I am unsure, perhaps a memory problem.

That's a difficult question. It's normally couched in terms not of the pre-existence of Jesus, but pre-existence of the Son (or even Christ). There is a lot of nuance between those three. I do not believe in a pre-incarnate conscious pre-existence of the man, Jesus. I believe he and his consciousness and everything that human life entails started at his conception in Mary's womb. I still struggle with some passages that can "sound" like there was some form of existence of a power or a divine presence or even some form of divine personhood of some sort prior to conception (perhaps the Spirit of God, the Father which later lived in and through him or even a pre-existent spiritual identity), but that would be an Arian view and I do think there are better ways to understand some of the Hebrew manner of speaking involved in most of those passages.

We don't have much in the way of revelation to suggest this.

[darinhouston]

On balance, I lean away from any unique separate pre-existence apart from the Holy Spirit - recognizing if the Holy Spirit fully indwells Jesus, then there's some sense in which it can be said to be "his" Spirit and so talking about such things becomes difficult. The way "most people" think of pre-existence, however, I don't really believe that.

[mikew]

Although I recognized the passages in the gospels that pointed to the deity of Christ, Paul's letters sometimes seemed to speak against recognition of his deity. It was the general tendency of Paul to refer to God and Christ Jesus. Funny. Even after I got beyond that view, I went to a scholarly conference and a guy, also new to those conferences, was hoping to present that very viewpoint. (Of course, an individual who is roaming around such a conference has a snowball chance of getting his point out.)
It now seems that Christ Jesus, as God incarnate, became glorified in that incarnate state and as the messenger, showing God's image to us on earth. So, the distinction of Christ Jesus from God is an honorific distinction rather than a separation from Christ always being part of the godhead. Of course, I discovered in Gal 3:19-20 that Paul showed the significance of the Shema in light of Christ Jesus being equal within the godhead.
As shared in another post, it is not of salvific importance if a person is not aware of Christ Jesus in the godhead, but it is a concern when the church leadership do not recognize the Trinity.

[Homer]

Philippians 2:1-11
New American Standard Bible 1995

1. Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2. make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3.Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4. do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5.Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7.but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10. so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The death of Christ seems to have been the predetermined program of God - planned before the foundation of the world.

When did Jesus' self-abnegation or humbling Himself initially occur? The text seems to indicate that it was before His birth of the virgin Mary. It doesn't seem possible to have occurred as a babe in His mother's arms, and if it is maintained that His humbling Himself occurred at or near His crucifixion, that would seem to imply that he had not humbled Himself prior to that point in time.

The text of Philippians 2:1-11 seems almost meaningless if there was no pre-existent personal Word as per John 1. The context is in the form of an imperative that we imitate Christ's humility. The self-abnegation seems to have been from Christ's conception in the virgin Mary until the events of the cross.

[darinhouston]

Philippians 2:1-11
New American Standard Bible 1995

1. Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2. make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3.Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4. do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5.Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7.but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10. so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The death of Christ seems to have been the predetermined program of God - planned before the foundation of the world.

When did Jesus' self-abnegation or humbling Himself initially occur? The text seems to indicate that it was before His birth of the virgin Mary. It doesn't seem possible to have occurred as a babe in His mother's arms, and if it is maintained that His humbling Himself occurred at or near His crucifixion, that would seem to imply that he had not humbled Himself prior to that point in time.

The text of Philippians 2:1-11 seems almost meaningless if there was no pre-existent personal Word as per John 1. The context is in the form of an imperative that we imitate Christ's humility. The self-abnegation seems to have been from Christ's conception in the virgin Mary until the events of the cross.

Homer, I don't get that - what about Philippians suggests pre-incarnate humbling? It doesn't say he humbled himself by being born a man, but by being obedient to the cross - a baby isn't obedient, especially pre-conception.

[Homer]

Darin,

Doesn't this plainly inform us that His humbling himself occur prior to His incarnation? I do not see how it can be understood otherwise:

5.Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7.but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

When was He "made" (Grk genomenos) in the likeness of men? Robertson's Word Pictures : "becoming, definite entrance in time upon His humanity".

[darinhouston]

Darin,

Doesn't this plainly inform us that His humbling himself occur prior to His incarnation? I do not see how it can be understood otherwise:

5.Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7.but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

When was He "made" (Grk genomenos) in the likeness of men? Robertson's Word Pictures : "becoming, definite entrance in time upon His humanity".

Not to me - it's at least not universally thought to be so. This could (and I believe is) said from the perspective of his earthly existence. His "regarding" is from the context of a man and his existence then - his presently being in the morphe of God - not a pre-existence in the form of God. I understand the participle ὑπάρχω used here represents a present, continuous aspect. Not a past. (Not "though he was" but "though being")

Besides if it's pre-existence and he was God, then it seems ridiculous to mention him being in the form of who he was. He would have just said "although he existed as God". Form of is sort of the point, so we can discuss what is meant by that - there are a number of ways to see that, but I find this being nothing more than a parallel to Adam who was likewise formed in the image of God. Adam chose to make himself God out of pride - Jesus took the opposite course and humbled himself, not striving to become God or even like God but doing God's will, being an obedient servant, as a result of which God elevated him above all names and principalities and so forth. We lower ourselves and God lifts us up. The sermon on the mount lived out. If we seek our own way, he'll let us have it but it spirals downward. If we submit and obey, he raises us up. Jesus being the ultimate and unique example in contrast with the first Adam.

I believe he emptied himself not at his incarnation, but through his life lived.

[dwight92070]

Jesus said: "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7

How is it possible that Jesus knows whats going on in heaven when a sinner repents? He didn't say, "Thus says the Lord", so it wasn't a prophetic word or a word of knowledge by the Holy Spirit. In fact, He never says "Thus says the Lord", because He IS the LORD.

In verse 10, He says again: "Likewise I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Again, how does He know how what happens in the presence of the angels of God, when a sinner repents? It's almost as if He knows because He has been there, and has seen the angels do just that - most likely during the days of the Old Covenant or even before that?

In Matthew 18:10-14, He also spoke the parable of the 100 sheep. The context there is that He is speaking of little children. We see that in verses 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 10. In fact, verse 10 says:

"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."

How does Jesus know that little children have angels? And how does He know that their angels ALWAYS see the face of His Father who is in heaven? Apparently He had seen those angels do just that.

These are not the words of someone who is simply a man. NO man had such knowledge before Jesus or since Jesus - to tell us what is going on in heaven, UNLESS they were seeing a vision like Isaiah or Ezekiel or given a revelation like John and the book of Revelation.

But there's no indication of either a vision here or a revelation. Both of these supernatural occurrences were obvious in those three books.

But they are not obvious here. Here, He speaks as if He has first-hand knowledge, like He had been there, and had seen those things in heaven.

Which means that He pre-existed and that He was and is more than human. Of course we know He is God.

As an aside, Matthew 18:14 says, "Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

Besides showing us again that He had knowledge that no other man has ever had, this also clearly debunks that evil doctrine, Calvinism, which says that God has chosen who would be saved and who would be lost, without their free will entering into the equation at all.

[darinhouston]

How is it possible that Jesus knows whats going on in heaven when a sinner repents? He didn't say, "Thus says the Lord", so it wasn't a prophetic word or a word of knowledge by the Holy Spirit. In fact, He never says "Thus says the Lord", because He IS the LORD.

In verse 10, He says again: "Likewise I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Again, how does He know how what happens in the presence of the angels of God, when a sinner repents? It's almost as if He knows because He has been there, and has seen the angels do just that - most likely during the days of the Old Covenant or even before that?

In Matthew 18:10-14, He also spoke the parable of the 100 sheep. The context there is that He is speaking of little children. We see that in verses 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 10. In fact, verse 10 says:

"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."

How does Jesus know that little children have angels? And how does He know that their angels ALWAYS see the face of His Father who is in heaven? Apparently He had seen those angels do just that.

These are not the words of someone who is simply a man. NO man had such knowledge before Jesus or since Jesus - to tell us what is going on in heaven, UNLESS they were seeing a vision like Isaiah or Ezekiel or given a revelation like John and the book of Revelation.

But there's no indication of either a vision here or a revelation. Both of these supernatural occurrences were obvious in those three books.

But they are not obvious here. Here, He speaks as if He has first-hand knowledge, like He had been there, and had seen those things in heaven.

Which means that He pre-existed and that He was and is more than human. Of course we know He is God.

As an aside, Matthew 18:14 says, "Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

Besides showing us again that He had knowledge that no other man has ever had, this also clearly debunks that evil doctrine, Calvinism, which says that God has chosen who would be saved and who would be lost, without their free will entering into the equation at all.

We clearly just think different from one another - it's clear that he knows such things because the Father revealed them to him (through the Spirit). That's not very controversial. Even Trinitarians believe he emptied himself of his divine prerogatives such as omniscience and so forth. Don't the apostles even talk about heaven and such? I don't see any inference of "first hand knowledge" as you suggest. He speaks as of someone who has special knowledge of the spiritual realms. He was, after all, a prophet (even if not "just" a prophet).