The Deity of Jesus

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:29 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:00 am
"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father." John 5:22-23

We are told to honor the Son JUST AS we honor the Father. How do we honor the Father? Of course by obeying Him, but we also honor Him by calling Him God, because that's Who He is. We are to honor Jesus JUST AS we honor the Father. Yes, we honor Jesus by obeying Him, but we also honor Jesus by calling Him God, because that's Who He is.
You just try to hard to make these concepts do more than they are intended to do - for example, wives are to submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord - that doesn't make the husband in the same class as the Lord.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:56 am

I would think the argument holds that Jesus, even if not God, necessarily has attributes described that do not match any normal human ontology.

I did not help create all things, I do not live in billions of believers, I can not defeat death itself, I was not granted life in myself, I do not uphold all things by the word of my power, I am not able to hear and answer the prayers of all saints, etc. etc.

None of these fit the definition of human nature, so either way we are left with something different than just human.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:26 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:29 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:00 am
"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father." John 5:22-23

We are told to honor the Son JUST AS we honor the Father. How do we honor the Father? Of course by obeying Him, but we also honor Him by calling Him God, because that's Who He is. We are to honor Jesus JUST AS we honor the Father. Yes, we honor Jesus by obeying Him, but we also honor Jesus by calling Him God, because that's Who He is.
You just try to hard to make these concepts do more than they are intended to do - for example, wives are to submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord - that doesn't make the husband in the same class as the Lord.
I don't have to try hard at all. I think these concepts do exactly what they are intended to do - that is, to show us unequivocally that Jesus is God. Just like Jesus didn't go around telling everyone "I am the Messiah - I am the Messiah", and yet on occasion He came right out and said that's Who He was, even so He doesn't go around saying "I am God - I am God". Yet on occasion godly men call Him God in the scripture. Just as it requires faith to believe that He was the Messiah - and that faith was not without evidence, even so it requires faith to believe that He is God, and that too is not without abundant evidence. But you and others in your camp choose to not believe that evidence.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:40 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:19 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:40 pm
You're trying to create some kind of being that is man but not a mere man, yet he is also not God, making him somewhere in between. The Bible nowhere tells us that such a being exists. We have God, man, Satan, the angels, the cherubim and seraphim, demons (if they're different than angels), and animal, fish, and bird life, insects, etc. That's it, there's no reference to beings or a being that looks like a man, and is in fact a man, and yet he is much more than a man, and he is much more than even the angels, who the Bible calls God, yet he is still not God. That's not found in the Bible. That's a totally fabricated being that the Bible says nothing about.
No, you're the one trying to create a "category" here - "mere" is a qualifier - an adjective that doesn't pertain to Jesus - not because he's some sort of hybrid being (that's your inference from my position, not my actual position) but a real man who is not an "ordinary" man - a man with no earthly father who was spiritually conceived, untainted by the fall, sinless, filled with the spirit, appointed by the Father to deliver and save mankind, exalted to his right hand to rule as his son, is no "mere" man, though also not "other" than man - he was a real man - a human.
The category of a "person" who is greater than man, and yet, at the same time "he was a real man", but less than God - is of your making (and others who take your position), not mine. It's not found in scripture. In fact, your belief sounds like a mystery, just like you say about the Trinitarian beliefs.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:52 pm

dizerner wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:56 am
I would think the argument holds that Jesus, even if not God, necessarily has attributes described that do not match any normal human ontology.

I did not help create all things, I do not live in billions of believers, I can not defeat death itself, I was not granted life in myself, I do not uphold all things by the word of my power, I am not able to hear and answer the prayers of all saints, etc. etc.

None of these fit the definition of human nature, so either way we are left with something different than just human.
Very much Sui generis (again, not "mere" man, but truly human). Of course, he's unique not since he was born of a virgin without human male DNA contributing to his conception. But, I don't believe he helped create all things, his living in us is by the spirit and is a bit of a mystery but also post-resurrection/exaltation, the Father raised him from death, and so forth. I'm not sure what you mean by "granted life in himself."

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:41 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:40 pm
The category of a "person" who is greater than man, and yet, at the same time "he was a real man", but less than God - is of your making (and others who take your position), not mine. It's not found in scripture. In fact, your belief sounds like a mystery, just like you say about the Trinitarian beliefs.
How you can say this completely dumbfounds me - it's exactly what Scripture says. Except I might say "greater than other men"

There's nothing wrong with mystery - the Bible has a few. But, the problem with the mysteries in the Trinity is that those mysteries arise not from the clear teaching but from the theories themselves.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:26 am

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:41 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:40 pm
The category of a "person" who is greater than man, and yet, at the same time "he was a real man", but less than God - is of your making (and others who take your position), not mine. It's not found in scripture. In fact, your belief sounds like a mystery, just like you say about the Trinitarian beliefs.
How you can say this completely dumbfounds me - it's exactly what Scripture says. Except I might say "greater than other men"

I will grant you that Jesus said, "My Father is greater than I." John 14:28, and that, at first glance, without considering all other scripture, and the context of this verse, it seems to agree with your viewpoint. In context, however, He said, "I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I." In His fleshly body, He voluntarily limited Himself, so in that sense, the Father was greater than He. But since He rose from the dead in His glorified body, it appears that He no longer is limiting Himself.
It's very similar to the statement by Jesus that even the Son does not know when He will return, but only the Father knows that. But I think it's highly improbable that He doesn't know NOW, when He will return.
This is made even more clear, when you consider the scores of verses that indicate that He is God in the flesh.
The category that you have created is a man who is called God, worshiped as God, prayed to as God, trusted as God, but is not God. That category is not found in the Bible.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:37 am

Very much Sui generis (again, not "mere" man, but truly human). Of course, he's unique not since he was born of a virgin without human male DNA contributing to his conception. But, I don't believe he helped create all things, his living in us is by the spirit and is a bit of a mystery but also post-resurrection/exaltation, the Father raised him from death, and so forth. I'm not sure what you mean by "granted life in himself."
John clearly states this, and you have to reject Paul as well.

You want to make it a "unique" human but these are NON-human attributes that NO other human has.

I'm not comfortable with that level of disrespect for Scripture.

God bless!

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:30 pm

"Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who HAS loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

Notice that the "Lord Jesus Christ" and "God our Father" are taken together as a single subject, using a singular verb, has, not the plural verb, which would be "have". So Paul is showing us that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are a single "unit", which agrees with John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one". Verse 31 shows us clearly how the Jews understood this - "The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him."

Jacob also calls God "the angel who has redeemed me from all evil"? in Genesis 48:15-16, an apparent reference to the angel of the Lord, which is generally seen as being Christ.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:04 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:30 pm
"Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who HAS loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word." 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

Notice that the "Lord Jesus Christ" and "God our Father" are taken together as a single subject, using a singular verb, has, not the plural verb, which would be "have". So Paul is showing us that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are a single "unit", which agrees with John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one". Verse 31 shows us clearly how the Jews understood this - "The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him."

Jacob also calls God "the angel who has redeemed me from all evil"? in Genesis 48:15-16, an apparent reference to the angel of the Lord, which is generally seen as being Christ.
There is no mainstream Trinitarian theologian who believes that this passage conflates Jesus with the Father or that Jesus "IS" the Father. "Generally seen as" begs the question. The question is whether this "general" position on so-called OT texts is supportable, not whether folks generally/traditionally see it that way. Personally, I find it ridiculous to think that this generic term for "messenger" or "angel" or the like (also generally conveying a means of agency or means of interaction on earth) was thought by Jacob to have been Jesus. Unless it was an ecstatic prophetic utterance of some sort (there's no indication it was) then there must have been something in Jacob's mind culturally that made sense to him and was meant to be understood by Joseph who he was blessing. We have to assume people mean "something" when they use words - and it's implausible tot think they believed there was another "person" that was truly God besides Yahweh.

I also think the NET bible (an unapologetically trinitarian translation) translation notes are interesting here --
The Samaritan Pentateuch reads “king” here, but the traditional reading (“angel”) may be maintained. Jacob closely associates God with an angelic protective presence. This does not mean that Jacob viewed his God as a mere angel, but it does suggest that he was aware of an angelic presence sent by God to protect him. Here he so closely associates the two that they become virtually indistinguishable. In this culture messengers typically carried the authority of the one who sent them and could even be addressed as such. Perhaps Jacob thought that the divine blessing would be mediated through this angelic messenger.

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