Should Trump Be Removed from Office

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Homer
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Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by Homer » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:15 pm

Christianity Today has called for Trump to be removed from office and says it is wrong for Christians to support Trump. Franklin Graham strongly disagrees. I have a lot of respect for Eric Metaxas who has spoken favorably for Trump.

I see Trump as a very flawed man, but on the whole I think he has helped the cause of Christ and has been used of God to help change the direction of our country. The left has gotten their way through the courts rather than legislation. As a result, in my lifetime there has been change that I see as terrible - abortion, gay marriage, for example.

I did not vote for Trump (or anyone), never thought he would be elected and couldn't bring myself to vote for him (wouldn't have mattered in Oregon anyway). Yet voting for most of the Democrats is out of the question for me because of the positions they hold.

Politics has become very divisive (and disgusting). What should the position of Christians be?

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darinhouston
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by darinhouston » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:06 am

I think the Christian's position should be one of supporting and proclaiming Truth. I believe personally CT has jumped on the wrong bandwagon and has taken the side of deception and subterfuge and evil (in my opinion). But (at best), the only other alternative is that it has jumped the gun before Truth can be known with any certainty. To any reasonably objective viewer, there are two completely incompatible narratives/paradigms of this whole enterprise -- either he's evil or they are and we're on the cusp of having clarity of which one is the case. They're clearly all sinners but that's not the point of the article. Until the facts come out (and I think Durham will do so), it is still a rorschach test and a Christian should perhaps assume the best of the accused (and not the accusers) when the truth is not known (particularly when dealing with motives).

Maybe "Deep State" is too conspiratorial to describe the alternative reality here -- I prefer "Perma State" since it's not as loaded but I am confident we are viewing the unwinding of a long-standing system of corruption and subversive governance. It may have taken a bull in a china shop, but we can't blame the bull or complain about the messy floor if breaking china is a good objective. We may never know the full Truth but CT took an unnecessary and unwise position at perhaps the best moment of clarity for liberals we've had that the House is playing games (witness the refusal to deliver the Articles of Impeachment) and are clearly trying to spin a narrative instead of seeking justice.

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darinhouston
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by darinhouston » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:37 am

Here is Franklin Graham's response:

Christianity Today released an editorial stating that President Trump should be removed from office—and they invoked my father’s name (I suppose to try to bring legitimacy to their statements), so I feel it is important for me to respond. Yes, my father Billy Graham founded Christianity Today; but no, he would not agree with their opinion piece. In fact, he would be very disappointed. I have not previously shared who my father voted for in the past election, but because of this article, I feel it is necessary to share it now. My father knew Donald Trump, he believed in Donald Trump, and he voted for Donald Trump. He believed that Donald J. Trump was the man for this hour in history for our nation.

For Christianity Today to side with the Democrat Party in a totally partisan attack on the President of the United States is unfathomable. Christianity Today failed to acknowledge that not one single Republican voted with the Democrats to impeach the President. I know a number of Republicans in Congress, and many of them are strong Christians. If the President were guilty of what the Democrats claimed, these Republicans would have joined with the Democrats to impeach him. But the Democrats were not even unanimous—two voted against impeachment and one voted present. This impeachment was politically motivated, 100% partisan. Why would Christianity Today choose to take the side of the Democrat left whose only goal is to discredit and smear the name of a sitting president? They want readers to believe the Democrat leadership rather than believe the President of the United States.

Look at all the President has accomplished in a very short time. The economy of our nation is the strongest it has been in 50 years, ISIS & the caliphate have been defeated, and the President has renegotiated trade deals to benefit all Americans. The list of accomplishments is long, but for me as a Christian, the fact that he is the most pro-life president in modern history is extremely important—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that, to say it doesn’t count? The President has been a staunch defender of religious freedom at home and around the world—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that? Also the President has appointed conservative judges in record number—and Christianity today wants us to ignore that? Christianity Today feels he should be removed from office because of false accusations that the President emphatically denies.

Christianity Today said it’s time to call a spade a spade. The spade is this—Christianity Today has been used by the left for their political agenda. It’s obvious that Christianity Today has moved to the left and is representing the elitist liberal wing of evangelicalism.

Is President Trump guilty of sin? Of course he is, as were all past presidents and as each one of us are, including myself. Therefore, let’s pray for the President as he continues to lead the affairs of our nation.

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Homer
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by Homer » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:12 pm

Thanks for your post Darin! I agree with what you said.

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darinhouston
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by darinhouston » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:49 pm

And this is with the Politics completely aside. I think the political/moral angle is an interesting discussion of whether he deserves our support as President aside from these issues, but that's a completely different issue than what our position should be on this particular issue of impeachment. Actively working to remove him on these facts is very different from campaigning for/against him in the next election. Personally, I think that if a Christian opposes Trump as President on purely religious grounds, we need to go all the way and oppose many things about our Nation which CT isn't willing to discuss and realize our place as ambassadors to another realm and remember we are guests here and to avoid positions like this. I think it's actually pretty scandalous as a Christian magazine to take such a position at this stage.

I do note this editor is exiting and this is his swan song. He may well be aligned with the global elite that are so desperate to remove this existential threat to their efforts. He is acting as irrationally as Pelosi and the echelons of power in our intelligence community -- it does make me wonder about his motives, though as a Christian I should assume the best and assume it was just well intended poor judgment.

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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by Singalphile » Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:22 pm

If you want to know the perspective of someone who doesn't follow politics, here it is:

1. I am generally saddened by Christians who get make these kinds of grand political pronouncements. I think it's a waste of time at best, and that it does more harm than good in promoting the gospel.

2. Nothing has floated over to my group (the group that doesn't care about politics) that has ever struck me as interesting. Seems like the same old, same old. And by that I mean that if the D's and R's were reversed, each side's positions would be reversed. (CT's article might be an exception.)

3. I've heard that Pence is a more decent guy and is at least more aligned with my views that Trump. So it seems like it might be good if he were president.

4. But I don't actually expect that anything interesting will come of it.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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darinhouston
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by darinhouston » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:38 pm

4. But I don't actually expect that anything interesting will come of it.
This is the only thing I'd disagree strenuously with -- I think as this unfolds, we will learn that it has been about smokescreens to hide perhaps the most scandalous event(s) in American History. I predict jail time could be in store for both the DNI and Director of CIA and possibly some in the Obama White House with at least some VERY damaging facts about Obama's role as well as our Intelligence partners such as UK and Australia, the State Department, the DNC and law firms and consultants operating on behalf of both the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaigns. I believe it is likely to reveal WH directed political spying at the most shocking level of not only of the Trump campaign but also at least the Ben Carson and Ted Cruz campaigns. I believe all of this intersected with other things of similar magnitude such as a round-trip corruption of sending hundreds of millions of financial aid to Ukraine to be redirected not only through Hunter Biden but also through NGOs to american politicians (including some Republicans - possibly even Lindsey Graham). And also US attempts to create puppet governments in Ukraine to expand NATO (the perceived threat by Russia to which they were reacting, defensively) and intersecting also with the UK/EU Brexit campaign. All the world's manipulations were failing and the perpetual state was losing its grip on power and have been acting in common purpose (even if not in actual conspiracy) to fight back the disrupting influence of Trump in world affairs and systems (the "Beast" of Revelation perhaps?) that have been built over several hundred years.

Interesting at the very least ! (not just impeachment of a guy the don't like)

javelinadad
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by javelinadad » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:42 pm

Jesus was born into "the promise land" at a time when it was being occupied by an enemy force.

~33 years later He ascended (left) and The Promise Land was STILL occupied by that enemy force.

I find it remarkable that He stated "It is finished", thus proclaiming mission accomplished, and yet the accomplishment of The King of Kings had almost nothing to do with the "politics" that man was so enamored with.

So it's a bit fascinating to me that modern Christianity so easily intertwines The Kingdom (where His will reigns) and man's politics.

Don't get me wrong. I'm blessed to have been born in the modern Era with all of the advantages that it affords, but I'm a citizen of this country second. Just like the jews of 2000 years ago, it's too easy to miss the fact that Jesus absolutely succeeded at establishing The Kingdom right under their noses. Neither the democrat or the republican is a threat to a child of The King.

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darinhouston
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by darinhouston » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:56 am

A bit off topic, but I wonder what views folks have of the "government" being on his shoulder.

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darinhouston
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Re: Should Trump Be Removed from Office

Post by darinhouston » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:23 am

I guess you all have seen the latest CT editorial, this time from the CT President. I’m beginning to think Trump Derangement Syndrome is more rampant than previously believed. The notion generally of unconditional support and evangelical support of any kind is a legitimate topic. But taking a principled stand on that point in the context of the present situation is mentally unsound or is driven by hate. (Or the mag is now a part of the globalist elite Atlanticist cabal [that's a joke, sort of].)

CT has said Trump is a "danger to democracy." First, when is Christianity concerned about "democracy" per se compared to justice? I guess it's because I'm a lawyer and am accustomed to defending the unsavory, but I actually think it’s more dangerous to democracy to take such a firm conclusory stand on removal of a President based on only one side’s evidence (all we've seen up till now except for a strong legal defense of a liberal democrat constitutional scholar). As a Christian, taking such a stand without two unbiased witnesses against him is even worse. Though there were witnesses, they were witnesses to facts either clearly disputed or which are not disputed at all but depend on your perspective or — worse — his motives/intent. This is in no way a Christian form of justice, particularly as a trial is imminent. The State Department witnesses were no better than shills -- they hate the President for the very reason I love him -- he isn't playing the permaState game. They think their internal rules and procedures and working papers and coffee clubs set the agenda -- it's time they learn that they are just employees, and their only authority is derivative from the President in affairs of State. We've had a century or more of Presidents run by the bankers and bureaucrats (and military) that got him there and keep him there. This guy has gone off script and that's dangerous (to their power system more so than our nation's security -- how many wars have we started lately?)

I find it exceedingly ironic that the same people who fail to give Trump the benefit of the doubt on the Ukraine situation are standing firm on the so-called “predicate” justifying the FBI “spying.” They do this without realizing that it’s at least possible that it was a very low threshold and every indication is that it wasn’t a good faith predicate but instead a subterfuge or opportunistic pretext for their actions (something our Attorney General has suggested). This requires determining intent. But, so does judging Trump's actions. Like the so-called predicate, Trump had every predicate or justification in his capacity as chief executive to seek after justice in Ukraine and using every tool at his disposal to do so EVEN IF he may well have had a secondary or even personal motive as well. Unlike the Dems, he wasn't trying to fabricate or even uncover a crime or motive that was heretofore unknown, but trying to get to the bottom of something already out there (that had already happened - and happened to him and was central to defending against the attack he was continuing to suffer). Is that worse than going to war and getting our soldiers killed? Executive decisions (both in government and in private enterprise) are usually complex mixes of motives and objectives. If we were to apply this standard to any other area of life we would bring our nation to its knees.

This is a very dangerous place for Evangelicals to take the moral high ground. God’s justice demands more than our political system does and demands that we hold the accusers accountable for proof and not railroad an accused because we think they are immoral or unsavory.

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