Heb.1:8?

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21centpilgrim
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Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:50 pm

A standard proof text for the deity of Christ.
Heb. 1:8
But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

you don't even have to go back to Ps. 45 to get clarity for vs9 brings some light

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

You have a lesser 'God' being anointed by 'God'. A clear picture of Christ, Messiah, the Anointed and not full deity.

Looking at the Hebrew for any clarification and 'God' in the first verse Ps.45:6 and both places in Ps. 45:7 is elohiym the divine name Yehovah is not used.

So why do Trinitarians use this passage as proof for the deity of Christ?

Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

steve7150
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:10 pm

You have a lesser 'God' being anointed by 'God'. A clear picture of Christ, Messiah, the Anointed and not full deity.










I think you are reading to much into this as Jesus said the Father is greater then I and elsewhere it's clear the Father is the Head of the Godhead but Jesus is still part of the Godhead, but he is a Son to the Father, not a lessor god.

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Paidion
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:16 pm

Jesus is lesser in terms of authority, but equally divine.

In any case, I don't think Heb 1:8 is a standard proof for the deity of Christ.

I regard as an incorrect translation:
But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."
The Greek words in Heb 1:8 and also in Ps 45:6 (Septuagint) and a literal translation is as follows:

ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος
The throne of you God into the age of the age.

The expression "ο θεος" (the God) is in the nominative case and is therefore either the subject of a sentence or a subjective completion. It occurs many times throughout the Greek New Testament to denote the one true God, the Father of our Lord Jesus. It is the nominative case and not in the vocative case (which would be θεε). It would have to be in the vocative case, if God were addressed as "O God."

Originally the RSV rendered the clause as "God is your throne for ever and ever." (which I believe to be the correct translation of "ο θρονος σου ο θεος") But the most recent edition renders Ps 45:6 as "Your divine throne endures for ever and ever," (which I think is in error also, since "ο θεος" is in the nominative case and not the genitive.) but it renders Heb 1:8 as "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." Virtually all translations have "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," but I cannot see how this is justified. I looked it up in Alford's Greek Testament. Alford dismisses the problem with the words " 'ο θεος' is probably vocative." But where else is the nominative case "probably vocative"?
Paidion

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:31 pm

Isn't nominative sometimes used as a vocative in direct address, like, "If it pleases the king to send his servants." For reference: https://books.google.com/books?id=W2ZKX ... ve&f=false
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Paidion
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:48 pm

Dizerner, I just did a google search for "nominative used as vocative" and there were many entries is which the claim is made that it is.

One gave an interesting example. The first two Greek words in John 17:25 are usually translated as "O righteous father."

The words in Greek are πατηρ (father) δικαιε (righteous). The adjective "δικαιε" is in the vocative case, but the noun it modifies "πατηρ" is in the nominative case.

So it appears that I must concede that the nominative is sometimes used as a vocative.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:38 am

Steve7150,

I was looking at this verse/passage in particular in examining the Trinity. Going through proof texts and looking into this one, as it is used to say that Jesus is called God.

Ps. 45 in it's context is talking about a king, possibly Solomon as referred to as Elohim. Elohim is used for the messiah, kings, judges, supernatural beings, false gods as well as God.

Upon examination, who thinks this passage holds up under scrutiny as a strong evidence for the deity of Christ? Not asking if you believe one way or another about the deity of Christ but this verse itself, does it bare up under examination?

Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:11 am

If we believed in Christ's divinity, would it support it, or would it contradict it?
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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:21 am

dizerner wrote:If we believed in Christ's divinity, would it support it, or would it contradict it?
Dizerner, I am asking about what the text says. Trying not to read a conclusion into the text. Trying to be a Berean here.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:39 am

21centpilgrim wrote:
dizerner wrote:If we believed in Christ's divinity, would it support it, or would it contradict it?
Dizerner, I am asking about what the text says. Trying not to read a conclusion into the text. Trying to be a Berean here.
Bereans cross-reference, they don't isolate from all the rest of Scripture. Look what happens with Romans 9.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:46 am

Dizerner,
If I was using a single NT passage and it's OT source to affirm something you believe would you be just as reluctant to engage due to 'isolating from the rest of the Scriptures'?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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