The Sabbath

[Guest]

it seems to me if you disobey God's moral law there is no escape.

steve gregg has made it clear that Christ never abolished the moral law, but amplified it.

we must keep our eyes fixed on the Lord all the time.

but quality time on a restful workless sabbath is different from a factory floor.

wouldn't you agree?

arguing otherwise seems like a lot of fancy footwork and obfuscation.

i am not advocating a legalistic sabbath. but simply a day set aside for the Lord.

you can go to the beach with your family. you can go to a park. whatever.

but if you work for money you are robbing God, for the earth is the Lord's and He does not permit us to extract from it for our gain on the day of rest.

do you advocate a seven day work week?

because the weekends we all enjoy are an inheritance from the old christian view of sanctified workless sabbath. and the problem is that because pastors and church leaders no longer teach this, we are left with a day of freedom to indulge in all sorts of profane activities, such as mindless tv and film enterntainment, professional sports spectacles, etc all of which are driving our nation into the pit of moral iniquity.

the same pastors who tell us that bush is the greatest christian of the century, that the war in iraq is justified on biblical grounds, and who show undiscerning support for israel, also fail to preach the sanctified sabbath.

i do not think that is just a coincidence.

do you?

[Guest]

I guess I am not sure if observing the sabbath is a moral law. There, of course, were many sabbaths observed by the observant jew. I understand that you are referring to the Saturday Sabbath but I would not call that a moral law, especially today. I base this on the fact that the actual Sabbath was intended as a shadow and now that the Substance is with us the shadow is obsolete. We should worship out of love and not obligation.

but quality time on a restful workless sabbath is different from a factory floor.

wouldn't you agree?

I agree its not the same. Which day is more appropriate and who decides? Or are you simply saying, as I believe, pick a day or part of the day and devote it to worship and study. In fact I know that there are many who devote many hours a day to some form of worship of God. Does this count in your book? When Jesus spoke of rescuing a lamb on the Sabbath I really think it was more about economic reasons rather than fondness for the lamb that a person might go an do this.

do you advocate a seven day work week?

Not necessarily. However I do not begrudge a worker who must for whatever reason he/she deems needful. To me its not a matter of how or when or how long but if.

the same pastors who tell us that bush is the greatest christian of the century, that the war in iraq is justified on biblical grounds, and who show undiscerning support for israel, also fail to preach the sanctified sabbath.

i do not think that is just a coincidence.

do you?

I wouldn't know. I just live my quiet little life and try not to hold myself any higher than I should.

Again I wish you well with your quest.

[Guest]

The way I see it, every day is the Lord's day in the New covenant. Our very lives belong to Jesus if we are redeemed (bought) by Him. Paul said:

Col 3:23-25
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
NKJV

Someone who must work minimum wage for 7 days a week to support his family is doing a good and proper thing, wouldn't you agree?

Jesus said:

Matt 12:12
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
NKJV

It's similar to tithing IMO. We're not required to give 10% of our income, we're required to be willing to forsake all for Jesus (Luke 14:33). The same goes with our time if that's the case.

[_Sean]

michael pk,

If we follow Jesus, we see that Jesus said:
"My father is always working and I too must work". Jesus worked on the Sabbath. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. (John 5)

Jesus also pointed out the error of their judgement:

Joh 7:22 Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
Joh 7:23 If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well?
Joh 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

They had to admit that they too worked on the Sabbath and break the Sabbath.

Have you ever read in Acts:

Act 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
Act 15:20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

I don't read the Sabbath in there. And certainly, there would be Gentile converts who wouldn't know what the Sabbath is unless they were told, yet the Jerusalem council said nothing about the Sabbath.


In addition to this Paul said:

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!
Gal 4:11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

And,

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Clearly, if Paul wanted us to follow the Sabbath, he had a strange way of telling us, when he clearly stated otherwise.

The best way to view this issues is:

Romans 14:5
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Paul could not make this statement if the Sabbath was a special day.
So if you are convinced then thats fine for you. And there is nothing wrong with it. As long as you realize your not justified by works of the law, but by faith.

[Guest]

Hi Michael Pk,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I could not help but notice that you have succumbed to the temptation that many others fall prey to as they attempt to place personal convictions on other believers, when God has not convicted those Christians on matters that are open to individual contemplation and practice.

You have shared your zeal for the shadow of Sabbath practice, but could not stop there. You then criticisize those who watch what you consider to be mindless TV, film, and sports spectacles. In addition to observing the Sabbath, you now want people to not engage in these three other things. By tally, there are now four personal convictions you have placed on other believers. In addition, I would expect that your view of mindless activity varies in some degree to what another believer considers to be such. So, I must conclude that any practice of Sabbath activity on my part would also need to rise to your particular standards. At this point, I could expect several more regulations placed upon me, by you.

The apostles disagree with you. "They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"; to whom we gave no such commandment; it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." Acts 15:23-29

I very much respect your zeal for a particular day of worship as you work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling.

[Guest]

Also remember:

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

God is with me each day in my work in an office and has opened new doors to uplift other witnessing Christians in the past 4 months. At other times, He has opened the door to the non-believer through me. This has been done Monday through Friday. Last Saturday He gave me the opportunity to discuss a matter with 2 people who recently left the institutionalized church and to begin planning a series of Bible studies that will again give them a local fellowship.

Take great care in interpreting the Sabbath. A Sabbath day's journey would not allow me to visit the beach nor the park unless I engaged in some of the interpretations of the Pharisees.

[Guest]

Great stuff guys!

[Guest]

as far as the jerusalem council, they also did not mention prohibiting lying, stealing, and coveting, yet these certainly are forbidden to a christian. so the ommission of sabbath from the jerusalem council means little to me.

as for quoting paul's one statement about days, months, sabbaths, etc against hundreds of verses in the bible, both old and new, about the importance of the sabbath and sanctity thereof, i am not persuaded.

but you guys seem to be confident of your views, so let the Lord convict and persuade each of us.

however you must admit that our society is a cesspool and den of iniquity and engaged in unrighteous wars and deeply in debt. the spirit tells me all of this is related to desecration of sabbath.

i told you i am not legalistic. drive to the beach if you wish. but focus on God and Family. things you cannot do when you are working. no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

Jesus said His Father works, but the Father said He rests. So better put on your thinking caps and figure it out.

i believe Jesus means His Father works salvation on sabbath. otherwise Jesus' words knock out dozens of verses in the OT that say over and over again that God rested and therefore we must rest.

Jesus came to clarify the nature of the rest. rest from selfish ambition and works of selfless salvation.

that's how i see it.

i don't appreciate your implications that i am being a pharisee. it is all too apparent that our society has become a wicked self centered cesspool. if you cannot discern that, then i'm not persuaded the Holy Spirit is operating in your lives.

another Spirit perhaps...

[Guest]

my final comment on all this is that sabbath is a gift.

if you wish to spurn it you are fools. tragic fools. but still fools.

you also are selfish since your private spirituality deprives the community of a chance for fellowship on a particular day, whatever they might choose.

you all seem to be in a private spiritual bubble, with no concern about community.

each one gets off on God whenever and however he wishes. no concern for joint fellowship. just kind of chaotic. that's how it looks to me.

and i find that very very sad.

[_Sean]

as far as the jerusalem council, they also did not mention prohibiting lying, stealing, and coveting, yet these certainly are forbidden to a christian. so the ommission of sabbath from the jerusalem council means little to me.

That's true, but Paul did cover this in 1 Corinthians 13, yet he still didn't mention the Sabbath should be kept.

as for quoting paul's one statement about days, months, sabbaths, etc against hundreds of verses in the bible, both old and new, about the importance of the sabbath and sanctity thereof, i am not persuaded.

You seem to be saying that even though Paul said it, he's wrong because the Old testament says otherwise. Could you show me a New testament scripture that says we Gentiles are to keep the Sabbath? Also, do you obey the Sabbath as the OT dictates (stoning to death if you work on the Sabbath)? If not then why did you change it to fit your lifestyle? If you keep the law, you can't pick and choose.

but you guys seem to be confident of your views, so let the Lord convict and persuade each of us.

Agreed.

however you must admit that our society is a cesspool and den of iniquity and engaged in unrighteous wars and deeply in debt. the spirit tells me all of this is related to desecration of sabbath.

We should test the Spirits.

Jesus said His Father works, but the Father said He rests. So better put on your thinking caps and figure it out.

i believe Jesus means His Father works salvation on sabbath. otherwise Jesus' words knock out dozens of verses in the OT that say over and over again that God rested and therefore we must rest.

Mat 12:3 He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
Mat 12:4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?
Mat 12:6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.
Mat 12:7 And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."


David broke the Sabbath, and Jesus used him as an example that you can break the Sabbath under certain conditions. The fact that the Jews didn't ridicule what David did, even though it was breaking the law shows that they were hipocrytes to bring charge against Jesus or his disciples, since he is greater than David. Jesus also said that the "Priests profane the Sabbath and are guiltless". Then Jesus said "one greater than the temple is here. Since we are a kingdom of Priests, and offer Spiritual sacrifies to God and obey Jesus, we are guiltless because Jesus is greater than the temple, and even those who worked at the temple were guiltless, just as we are IF we are following and doing the work of "one greater than the temple".

Jesus came to clarify the nature of the rest. rest from selfish ambition and works of selfless salvation.

Shouldn't we do this everyday?