Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

[jriccitelli]

(As a side note, I do feel that some animals will be saved, and some people will not, as for whom that is, is Gods choice)
I really have not heard any 'good' argument coming from the Universalist camp that can explain the ignoring of the insurmountable warnings of severe judgment, destruction, and killing by God chapters and verse as nothing other than what? Tough love? Warnings of consequences, seems like death is the consequence.

Remember if God did not think this life was a good enough test for most, what makes Hell a better test of our freewill and heart. Is hell where we demonstrate faith and good works? I admit death and being killed is a wake up call for some, but is that Gods better plan. Is the Cross 'not' a good enough sign or message to repent, you also need to be burned in Hell first?
The attempt to turn Hell, the pit, Sheol into a place of correction has little to go on. I do not see criminals coming out of jail as reformed or corrected, most all go right back to their same ways, some even worse, and often repeat their crimes. And yes I was deterred from jail when I realized some guys in there wanted to be in there, or did not care.
You said no one wants to go to jail or go back, but many 'do' see it as gaining notoriety, respect. They see it as an education in crime and contacts. And some gang members see it as a job, some are paid, some hoping for a reward upon release for gang activity.
This downplays the severity of what is most likely exactly what it is portrayed to be, a final judgment without hope. The Watchman's Words come to mind, their blood on my hands, if I do not warn them.
(I guess since purgatory would still allow for a hell, and evangelicals are hesitant to start quoting 2 Maccabees, they turn hell into purgatory)

In Universalism the fire, destruction, and killing that God does is reinterpreted as 'corrective'. Punishment can be corrective and educational, but that does not automatically make the fire, destruction, and killing that God does 'corrective'. It makes no sense to kill someone if you are planning to 'correct' them. I usually try to fix something 'before' I throw it in the trash or fire. (And I do think an executioner would resist putting to death a son, as it has happened)

There is nothing corrective about fire or destruction. The intent and purpose of putting something in fire is to destroy it. That is what anyone in the ancient world would think and anyone associated with getting rid of piles of rubbish and unwanted items would know (And anyone who has surveyed the scene of a fire).
Destruction kind of speaks for itself, if God says He is going to destroy I think His intention is clear, that is what you do when you do not even want the thing around anymore. Sounds rough, but that is what you do with dead animals, God writes this out in detail - I do not see how God could make it any more 'clear'.

[steve7150]

Seems I cannot get the Universalist to come up with (but a few) supporting scriptures.
Where as I have a really hard time reducing supporting scripture down to chapters and books.
It seems we cannot get very far into discussion when I bring up 'these' scriptures.
How does Genesis thru Malachi 'not' make my point?
'All must repent' and have Faith to be saved, otherwise they are punished and destroyed.
What amount of exegesis will prove this is wrong?







"For in Adam all die even so in Christ all shall be made alive" 1st Cor 15.22

"Jesus is the Savior of all mankind especially of those who believe" 1 Timothy 4.10


Here are two verses out of dozens and they seem self explanatory to me. It's possible "all" does not mean every last person but i think it certainly means the majority of people which only leaves postmortem repentance as the methodology that God will use.

Everyone destroyed in the verses you list will be resurrected and face judgment so where we differ is that i think that "judgment" (krisis) can include punishment followed by repentance and i think the last two chapters in Revelation suggest that in the end "the nations" (most folks perhaps all) will be healed of their sin.

[backwoodsman]

Would you mind sharing your perspective?

Sorry for the slow reply; been a bit sidetracked.

To me, the most important points are:

* Salvation is not about being saved from hell (whatever one's view of hell may be), it's about being saved from our sins, and being brought into the relationship with God for which we were created.

* Whatever the fate of unbelievers turns out to be, Jesus and the rest of scripture are clear that it's something to be avoided at all costs; and that the sooner one turns to God, the better.

I had in mind to go a little further on my answer than that, but after several starts from several different angles, it seems best to leave it there for the moment. More later, perhaps, if the Lord leads. I will say, though, that after quite a bit of reading, studying, and thinking on this issue, I had to conclude that the Biblical teaching is very different than I'd been taught; and of course, I then had to change my view accordingly.

[steve7150]

Sorry for the slow reply; been a bit sidetracked.

To me, the most important points are:

* Salvation is not about being saved from hell (whatever one's view of hell may be), it's about being saved from our sins, and being brought into the relationship with God for which we were created.

* Whatever the fate of unbelievers turns out to be, Jesus and the rest of scripture are clear that it's something to be avoided at all costs; and that the sooner one turns to God, the better.

I had in mind to go a little further on my answer than that, but after several starts from several different angles, it seems best to leave it there for the moment. More later, perhaps, if the Lord leads. I will say, though, that after quite a bit of reading, studying, and thinking on this issue, I had to conclude that the Biblical teaching is very different than I'd been taught; and of course, I then had to change my view accordingly.


Thanks and if you feel led to add more later i would like to hear it. My opinions are not etched in stone so i like hearing thoughtful responses.

[Homer]

Steve7150,

Regarding the often cited "every knee shall bow and tongue confess", supposedly a universalism proof text, I just recently came across the following while reading Isaiah:


Isaiah 66:22-24, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22. “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23. “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

So the "all mankind...bow" sounds much like the "every knee" statement. But then it continues:

24. “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

Whoops, seems "all mankind" has some exceptions as to who will endure in the end. Could it be this passage helps us to understand the "worm that does not die, fire that's never quenced" in the NT?

[steve]

Could it be this passage helps us to understand the "worm that does not die, fire that's never quenced" in the NT?

I think it does. Jesus was clearly referring to this passage, in Mark 9:43-44, where He specifically related it to the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna). It does not speak of the eternal state. It describes "corpses" (which, by all accounts, would be dead bodies). Thus it is not describing a place of eternal torment, nor a place of annihilation. Corpses do not feel torture, and annihilated corpses don't exist (they have been annihilated).

Like other passages describing national judgments (e.g., Ex.15:6, 7,12; Ps.97:5; Isa.34; Ezek.38:18-22; 39:11-16; Joel 2:1-5; Nah.1:3-6; Zech.14:12), this uses poetic and impressionistic language to magnify the horror of the disaster to the recipients. However, if pressed literally, and applied to those condemned after the eschatological judgment, it contradicts every known view of hell.

[steve7150]

Isaiah 66:22-24, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22. “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23. “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

So the "all mankind...bow" sounds much like the "every knee" statement. But then it continues:

24. “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

Whoops, seems "all mankind" has some exceptions as to who will endure in the end. Could it be this passage helps us to understand the "worm that does not die, fire that's never quenced" in the NT?

Homer Posts: 1153Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm







Interesting verses Homer as it seems to indicate that the saved are aware of the fate of the condemned in hell. Yet in heaven there will be unrelenting joy which is hard to imagine if the condemned are simply tormented forever or possibly even annhilated so the only conclusion that lines up with joy in heaven is if the punishment in hell is corrective and for purification. Then the saved in heaven would indeed be joyful because Jesus taught us to love our enemies because God does.

Jesus referenced this scenerio (Isa 66) when he quoted this chapter and added "everyone will be salted with fire." Mark 9.49 I think Jesus is saying in being salted with fire these people are being purified with fire. It sounds painful but it gets rid of the infection.

You were right that in this case (Isa 66) all mankind meant only the redeemed but in Phil 2.11 Paul(referencing Isa 45) included folks in heaven, on the earth and under the earth confessing Christ and that does sound like everyone including the dead.

[Paidion]

Jesus forgives because He took Gods wrath on Himself, if you do not Repent and Believe then you will experience the wrath, same God, same message; Repent, bring a sacrifice, or else!

It seems your position is that Jesus is forgiving, but God is a divine Ogre who will send us all to Hell unless He is appeased. Your belief seems to be that Jesus saves us from God!

How different the scriptural description that Jesus is the exact imprint of God's essence (Heb 1:3), and that He and God are in complete agreement, not on opposite "sides" concerning sin. The scripture also indicates that Jesus is the one who revealed God as He really is, and that He died to save us, not from God, not from Hell, but from SIN. Sin is the thing to be feared. Not God, and not Hell. Oh I know; there are scriptures that speak of "fearing God", but they don't mean cowering in terror, but rather honouring and respecting God in every area of life.

Paul wrote that a woman should see that she fears her husband (Ephesians 5:33). The same Greek word is used from which the English "phobia" is derived. Yet, this does not mean that a wife is to have a cowering fear of her husband, but that she respect or reverence him. In that verse, I know of only three translations which render "φοβηται" as "fears" — AV, ASV, and Darby. The word is rendered "respects" by the Douay, Phillips, RSV, WEB, NKJV, EMTV, ESV, WEB, and Williams. It is rendered as "reverence" by Murdoch, Rotherham, and R Webster. So I think "fear" of God likewise refers to respect for God and reverence of Him which results in obedience to Him.

[steve]

pretty much makes everything jive to me

I'm pretty sure you meant "jibe." Though...maybe not?

[Paidion]

There is nothing corrective about fire or destruction. The intent and purpose of putting something in fire is to destroy it.

Let's see, Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire."(Mark 9:49). So if you are correct about fire, then His "intent and purpose" is to destroy everyone.

Why did Jesus come? Let Him answer for Himself:

"I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! (Luke 12:49)"
Does Jesus have a great longing to see the earth and its inhabitants destroyed?

Jesus uttered this sentence just after He gave a parable about three SLAVES of a master. One slave knew his master's will and the master gave him a severe beating. Another slave did not know his master's will, and he received a light beating. Was the purpose of these beatings to correct the slaves or to destroy them? Only the third slave, who said that his master delayed his coming and began to beat his fellow slaves, and eat and drink and get drunk, had a different fate. The master returned at a time when the slave was not looking for him. The master "cut him in two" and appointed him a place with the unfaithful. But we are not sure that even that slave was "destroyed". For if he had been killed, how could he have been appointed a place anywhere?

In any case, Jesus' deep desire to see ALREADY KINDLED the fire which He came to send , indicates, not that Jesus wanted to destroy people, but to correct them.