God's Wrath

[Todd]

Matt 5:43-48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

How do these words from Jesus fit with judgment? Does God require that all the bad things one does be recompensed equally? Jesus rejected "eye for an eye". It may not seem fair that someone who does evil and lives a full life seemingly free from retribution, but who determines the outcome? What if God is able to raise up each person in a changed fashion. Who are we to grumble? I agree with Paidion's comment...

Unfortunately, man looks at a person's past actions, and seeks retributive punishment to "make him pay." God looks at a man's present condition, and if He finds him unrepentant, He seeks a way to lead the man to repentance, and to reformation through His enabling grace.

I do not pretend to have the answers to all these questions. I simply present this alternative view. I believe that God does reward us according to our works while we still live, reaping what we sow. This is one way to view the judgment. If the judgment happens post-resurrection as many believe, why does Paul not mention it in 1 Cor 15? That chapter gives more detail about the resurrection than any other place, yet he fails to mention Judgment day. I wonder why?

Todd

[Perry]

..But punishment does not appear to be an effective deterrent in general. If it were, one would expect the murder rate in U.S.A. to go down after capital punishment was restored in many states. But it actually went up!

Isn't that because the punishment is so slow in coming?

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

[Perry]

I do not pretend to have the answers to all these questions.

For the record, Todd, I appreciate your involvement in this dialog. In fact, I hope you're right!

[Todd]

in 1 corinthians 15:54,55 which you quoted earlier. i would grant you that if we had no other information about the nature of the resurrection than, yes the wording may be construed ambiguous as to whether paul in the preceding verses was describing the dead rising generally, or a specific group's particular quality of raising.

Jeremiah,

There is another place which Paul specifically mentions the two groups of the resurrection (which is referred to as "the redemption of the body" in Rom 8:23).

Rom 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The first group is called, "the sons of God"; the second group, the rest of humanity, is called, "the creation". Here Paul confirms that the sons of God will be raised first. Afterward, the rest of mankind will be liberated from their bondage of corruption (death and the grave) into the same glorious liberty as the sons of God. This sounds a lot like what we have in 1 Cor 15 where Pauls says "we shall all be changed." So, I see this passage as more evidence for the ultra-universalist view.

Todd

[jeremiah]

whats up man,

If the judgment happens post-resurrection as many believe, why does Paul not mention it in 1 Cor 15? That chapter gives more detail about the resurrection than any other place, yet he fails to mention Judgment day. I wonder why?

i don't think that's accurate. IMO its not the most detail given about the resurrection in general. but rather the most detail given regarding the nature or quality of the resurrected body into which those in Christ will be transformed. therefore, mentioning judgment day is superfluous to his intention. most of the detail he gives is in answering the question of "how are the dead raised up?.. and with what body do they come?" therefore, apparently he didn't mention it because it was outside the scope of the inquiry, and the greater confusion at hand for the corinthian church.

would you demonstrate why you think it's correct to think paul's use of "creation" and "the whole of creation" are references to the rest of humanity? or maybe point me somewhere where that answer is available, (i imagine it wouldn't be a short answer, but maybe)

grace and peace brother...

[Todd]

would you demonstrate why you think it's correct to think paul's use of "creation" and "the whole of creation" are references to the rest of humanity? or maybe point me somewhere where that answer is available, (i imagine it wouldn't be a short answer, but maybe)

I prefer short answers, although they end up being inadequate in most cases.

The answer is not a slam dunk for my argument; however, consider the following verse from Paul.

Col 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Here the gospel is preached to "every creature". Certainly Paul was not preaching to rocks and trees and birds. The word creature is from the Greek word ktisis which is the same word translated as creation in Rom 8:22.

Here is another example of ktisis.

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation [ktisis]; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I realize there are other uses of ktisis that may refer to more than just people, but here are at least a couple of other references from Paul where he uses the word to refer to people (not trees).

We also know from Paul that both the just and unjust are resurrected (Acts 24:15), so it seems natural to me that Rom 8:18-23 is referring to these same two groups.

Todd

[jeremiah]

I prefer short answers, although they end up being inadequate in most cases.

yeah man, in this case, that was adequate at least for me, to more clearly see where you're coming from in romans 8. thanks for that.

as a follow up though, how do you understand the phrase repeated thoughout as "in Christ" ? for me that phrase or concept becomes the root of any categories i see regarding the resurrection. as in, those of us raised to aeonian life, and those of us raised to aeonian condemnation.

grace and peace...

[Todd]

as a follow up though, how do you understand the phrase repeated thoughout as "in Christ" ? for me that phrase or concept becomes the root of any categories i see regarding the resurrection. as in, those of us raised to aeonian life, and those of us raised to aeonian condemnation.

For a more thorough answer this time, I'll direct you to the following link which gives an explanation of John 5:24-29 which I believe you were referencing.

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=3325

Todd

[Paidion]

Yes, you spanked your children. But did you do it out of revenge? Or did you do it to correct them? There is all the difference in the world, though both are called "punishment."

So you believe God instituted capital punishment as recorded in Exodus. Note: it wasn't for murder only, but for rape, adultery, and even some acts which we would consider "minor" today.

Can you even imagine Jesus sentencing someone to death? He didn't condemn the adulteress, though under the Mosaic law she deserved the death penalty, and her accusers were ready to carry it out through stoning. If Jesus had been under the Mosaic law, he might have said, "She has been caught in the act of adultery. The law is clear! She must be stoned!" And He would probably have picked up the first stone to get the execution rolling. But instead, He said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." And there wasn't a stone cast.

Jesus is the one who revealed the Father to man. Jesus Himself is exactly like the Father, the exact imprint of the Father's essence (Heb. 1:3). So what are we going to believe about the Father? What Jesus revealed? Or what is written by Moses?

Jesus said:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matt 5:43-45)

Just as the Father brings the goodness of the sun and rain to EVERYONE, we must do the same in order to be His children. If, instead, we seek vengeance upon those who have done wrong, we will be opposing the word of Christ, and therefore the word of the Father. For the Father and the Son are One; they are in perfect harmony.

[Todd]

yeah man, in this case, that was adequate at least for me, to more clearly see where you're coming from in romans 8. thanks for that.

Rom 8:18-25
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Let me explain my thoughts on Rom 8 more fully.

What happens when a man dies. His body is laid to rest in the grave, and then the inevitable process of decay begins. Paul calls this, "the bondage to decay." Without Christ, this fact would leave us hopeless beyond this mortal existence. In this passage, Paul speaks of the redemption of the body; he is speaking of the resurrection which gives us hope beyond the grave. He then affirms what he also says elsewhere that there is an order to the resurrection. The dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thess 4:16, 1 Cor 15:20-24). In Rom 8:19 Paul says that the creation must await the revealing of the sons of God. Who are the sons of God? Paul says in v14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." The sons of God are are the dead in Christ who shall rise first. The creation must wait its turn for the redemption of their bodies and for their liberation from the bondage to decay.

In 1 Cor 15:22 Paul says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." One way to understand this verse is that all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. The group referred to as "all" in the first part of the verse, is the same group referred to as "all" in the second part of the verse. If this is correct, then it seems reasonable that Paul is describing the resurrection of "all" as he continues his discourse through the end of the chapter. So when he says, "we shall all be changed" he refers to both the just and the unjust (the sons of God and the creation).

So we have the sons of God (those led by the Spirit), and we have the creation (everyone else). Since the dead in Christ must rise first, the creation must wait for the revealing of the sons of God, then once their bodies are redeemed in the resurrection, the creation also will be delivered from the bondage to decay into the same glorious liberty of the sons of God.

While I realize these passages can be argued differently, I find this interpretation makes sense to me and aligns with God's ultimate purpose (Eph 1:10).

Todd