Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

[Homer]

Sam wrote:
I consider the New Testament record to be the final revelation from God, given through the Apostles and Prophets by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

And TK responded:
I guess I don't quite get what you mean here. Are you saying that the HS never "speaks" to Christians any more? or gives them "words of knowledge" and the like? if that is what you are saying, then we are millions of miles apart in our theology, but that is okay with me.

There is (and has been) a great problem with the idea that the Holy Spirit speaks to people today as He did to the Apostles. Around 1830 Sidney Rigdon began to speculate that God's revelation might not be complete. Rigdon was a prominent preacher of the time and was rebuked by Alexander Campbell for this idea. Then Rigdon met Joseph Smith, who claimed new revelation, and joined him in forming the Latter Day Saints. So we need to carefully consider how the Holy Spirit speaks to us today. As a local Baptist lady remarked, God speaks to her through the scriptures. I tend to agree with her. When He speaks to me it is more like being poked with a sharp stick than an audible sound.

The problem with applying the promise that "the Spirit will guide you into all truth" is that there is nothing in the text to distinguish any difference in the degree or way this might apply to anyone, such as those who Jesus spoke directly to, Joseph Smith, Ellen White, or to us.

Regarding why Jesus had to go away for the Spirit to come, the possible explanation might be that the Spirit is in a form that can be everywhere while Jesus, in His resurrected body, has a particular location.

Rich wrote:
The apostles seemed to receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them (John 20:22).

This translation is problematic. The Greek word lambano, translated "receive", is the word for taking something. Jesus just commissioned them to go in V. 21 and He might be simply saying to them to take the Spirit when you go.

[TK]

Homer wrote:

There is (and has been) a great problem with the idea that the Holy Spirit speaks to people today as He did to the Apostles.

This is rather stunning to me because I thought it was a given that God speaks to His people today (and not just via scripture)- although I guess a lot hinges on the phrase "as He did to the Apostles." I certainly believe the HS speaks to us today- maybe not in the exact same way, but what do you think people mean when they say "God spoke to me?" I have even heard very conservative non-charismatic pastors say things like that, and they don't mean that they were reading the Bible and God spoke to them through the scripture- although of course God certainly does speak to us that way. But I also believe that God speaks to us in other ways- the still small voice, for example. Or in a dream, or in a word of knowledge or wisdom.

We are in a relationship with Him- why must our conversation with Him be one sided, or simply limited to hearing from the scriptures?

Rest in this - it is His business to lead, command, impel, send, call, or whatever you want to call it. It is your business to obey, follow, move, respond, or what have you... The sound of 'gentle stillness' after all the thunder and wind have passed will be the ultimate Word from God.

Jim Elliot

TK

[Homer]

Hi TK,

You wrote:

but what do you think people mean when they say "God spoke to me?

And that is the key question. I recall Steve remarked long ago on his program that "some people have a high opinion of their mental impressions".

Perhaps I am too much a rationalist.

God bless, Homer

[SamIam]

TK wrote:

I certainly believe the HS speaks to us today- maybe not in the exact same way, but what do you think people mean when they say "God spoke to me?" I have even heard very conservative non-charismatic pastors say things like that, and they don't mean that they were reading the Bible and God spoke to them through the scripture- although of course God certainly does speak to us that way.

I have heard preachers say these things too. Most often in the form "the Lord has laid it on my heart to say ... ," and then he proceeds to say whatever it was that the Lord "laid on his heart." I consider that a lot of this kind of thing is a false piety. The preacher is trying to come off as spiritual. After all it sounds a lot more spiritual to say "the Lord has laid it on my heart," than to say "I've been thinking about this, and I want to tell you." Sometimes preachers say these kind of things because its just part of the formula of things preachers say. I don't think they are trying to be deceptive, they just do not think about the implications of what they are saying. Some preachers say "God spoke to me" because they want to manipulate their audience. Bottom line, just because a preacher claims to hear from God does not make it so. I tend to stop listening to a preacher who makes this claim.

But I also believe that God speaks to us in other ways- the still small voice, for example. Or in a dream, or in a word of knowledge or wisdom.

I have never experienced any of these things, and I'm not listening for God in any of these ways. Frankly, my plate is full listening to God in the scriptures. I do not consider my spiritual life in any way impoverished by sticking to the scrictures and disregarding any other so called "word from God."

[TK]

okey dokey.

TK

[Homer]

Addendum:

Rich wrote and I replied:

(Rich) The apostles seemed to receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them (John 20:22).

(me) This translation is problematic. The Greek word lambano, translated "receive", is the word for taking something. Jesus just commissioned them to go in V. 21 and He might be simply saying to them to take the Spirit when you go.

Further support for the idea that Jesus meant for them to "take" the Spirit when they went is in the tense of the word lombano which is an aorist imperative which is a command to do something in the future.

[kaufmannphillips]

Rich wrote:
The apostles seemed to receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them (John 20:22).

Homer wrote:
This translation is problematic. The Greek word lambano, translated "receive", is the word for taking something. Jesus just commissioned them to go in V. 21 and He might be simply saying to them to take the Spirit when you go.

{and}

Further support for the idea that Jesus meant for them to "take" the Spirit when they went is in the tense of the word lombano which is an aorist imperative which is a command to do something in the future.

The imperative built on the present tense stem is called the present imperative and indicates a continuous action. The imperative built on the aorist tense stem (without augment) is called the aorist imperative and indicates an undefined action. There is no time significance with the imperative. Once again we urge the adoption of the terminology "continuous imperative" and "undefined imperative." {William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar}

Why does the text mention that he breathes on them?

TK wrote:
But I also believe that God speaks to us in other ways- the still small voice, for example. Or in a dream, or in a word of knowledge or wisdom.

SamIam wrote:
I have never experienced any of these things, and I'm not listening for God in any of these ways. Frankly, my plate is full listening to God in the scriptures. I do not consider my spiritual life in any way impoverished by sticking to the scrictures and disregarding any other so called "word from God."

I'm totally sprung on my new girlfriend. I've been reading her love notes to past boyfriends, and she's just fantastic. Never listen to a word she says now, though. Those old notes are heavy enough for me. I don't think I'm missing out on anything.

[TK]

Nice analogy, Emmett.

TK

[SamIam]

kaufmannphillips,

I'm totally sprung on my new girlfriend. I've been reading her love notes to past boyfriends, and she's just fantastic. Never listen to a word she says now, though. Those old notes are heavy enough for me. I don't think I'm missing out on anything.

I hear your girlfriend has been talking to Joseph Smith, Ellen G White, Sun Yung Moon, David Koresh and lots of other guys. What's up with that?

[TK]

SamIam wrote:

I hear your girlfriend has been talking to Joseph Smith, Ellen G White, Sun Yung Moon, David Koresh and lots of other guys. What's up with that?

Good grief. There is a difference between hearing from the Lord and starting a cult. God hasn't told me to do that lately- no one else I know either. His sheep hear His voice. Those people weren't hearing His voice. They were hearing-- someone else's.

TK