What is the deal with healing?

[TK]

Hi suzana- check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw-0wR87okY

I just think we have to be ready to do stuff like this. Of course we have to walking extremely close with the Lord to be ready.

TK

[Suzana]

Hi TK,

Yes, that’s an interesting video; (I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it previously, I think you gave the link before).
No doubt a lot of us Christians need to be more consecrated to God personally, and committed or zealous in praying for revival and God’s kingdom to be manifested through His Spirit in us, His body.

What do you make of Paul’s meaning in the letter to the Corinthians, and how it applies to us today?

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

[steve7150]

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

After the phrase “yet we” I see this verse changing focus from His earthly ministry to the atonement . Here’s my paraphrase of Is 53:4

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (during his earthly ministry) but in spite of this fact we still esteemed him smitten by God, and afflicted.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if the words in Hebrew refer to physical sickness since it's not referring to the atonement on the cross anyway. I think Mat 8 makes this clear.





Steve F , "yet we" seems to draw a contrast in the two opposite views that people had about Jesus during the same event otherwise there would not really be a contrast if the events were different. In addition i can't really see why he would be bearing our griefs and sorrows during his earthly ministry for 3 1/2 years which contained many miraculous events and events which glorified God. I think his statement on the cross "my God my God why have you forsaken me" would lead people to conclude God smite him.

[steve7150]

TK, far be it from me to discourage anyone’s faith and I agree that we don’t exercise enough faith in God (especially here in North America) but here’s my concern. The Word of Faith teaching tends to turn our relationship of faith in God into a mechanical non-relational experience. Rather than faith being a trust in your heavenly Father it becomes an impersonal endeavour to follow the correct techniques in order to obtain what you ask for. Although having specific prayer requests answered is a very important part of the Christian life, I don’t think it’s the most important. I think the most important is our relationship with God. This is something the W of F teaching tends to steer one away from.





I think believing God really may heal is not exclusive to WOF teaching. In Rom 5 Paul said through the abundance of grace we have been made righteous so that we may reign in life. I think reigning in life is not only overcoming sin for Paul also refers to sin when he says "sin shall not have dominion over you" therefore it seems to mean that in addition to sin not having dominion over us we will reign not only in eternity but also in this life and that healing would be a lessor blessing then reigning.
Obviously many people are not healed and yes as some people say , we all will die someday anyway but that's not really about what Paul said.

[SteveF]

Steve7150 wrote

Steve F , "yet we" seems to draw a contrast in the two opposite views that people had about Jesus during the same event otherwise there would not really be a contrast if the events were different

Hi Steve, thanks for sharing your thoughts. That is one way of understanding the passage (and I used to) but IMO Mat 8:17 makes it difficult to see it that way.

i can't really see why he would be bearing our griefs and sorrows during his earthly ministry for 3 1/2 years

To me it seems pretty clear that the first part of Is 53:4 was fulfilled during his earthly ministry because Mat 8:17 says it was:

Mat 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
Mat 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: "He took our illnesses and bore our diseases."

I think believing God really may heal is not exclusive to WOF teaching.

The reason I singled out WOF teaching was because the audio link TK provided was a WOF style teacher. Actually the one message I listened to was an exact carbon copy of the WOF messages I listened to in the 80's. I am aware there are others, like A.B. Simpson (founder of Christian Missionary and Alliance), who teach healing in the atonement .

In Rom 5 Paul said through the abundance of grace we have been made righteous so that we may reign in life. I think reigning in life is not only overcoming sin for Paul also refers to sin when he says "sin shall not have dominion over you" therefore it seems to mean that in addition to sin not having dominion over us we will reign not only in eternity but also in this life and that healing would be a lessor blessing then reigning.

What you are saying seems logical but is it biblical. I could also make a logical statement that suffering persecution is not reigning in this life. In other words, do you have a biblical argument that Paul intended anything more than what he said in the immediate context of the passage?

God Bless
Steve

[steve7150]

To me it seems pretty clear that the first part of Is 53:4 was fulfilled during his earthly ministry because Mat 8:17 says it was:

Mat 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
Mat 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: "He took our illnesses and bore our diseases."




Ok Steve good point, but some of Jesus healings were performed because of the faith of others because Jesus explicitly said so, and it says in Acts that Jesus performed his healings through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the same forever, the Holy Spirit is now here therefore our faith is the variable in the equation unless it is not God's will to heal us. My default position is to choose to believe God wants to heal us although it will be in his timeframe and if he does'nt heal then i humbly accept that he has a greater purpose.

[steve7150]

In Rom 5 Paul said through the abundance of grace we have been made righteous so that we may reign in life. I think reigning in life is not only overcoming sin for Paul also refers to sin when he says "sin shall not have dominion over you" therefore it seems to mean that in addition to sin not having dominion over us we will reign not only in eternity but also in this life and that healing would be a lessor blessing then reigning.

What you are saying seems logical but is it biblical. I could also make a logical statement that suffering persecution is not reigning in this life. In other words, do you have a biblical argument that Paul intended anything more than what he said in the immediate context of the passage?






Steve F, That's another good point re suffering persecution is not reigning but i would respond that persecution s/b a temporary setback and ultimately we s/b victorious.
These expressions like "reigning in life" or "seek his righteousness and all these other things shall be added" as you suggested seem logically to be greater then the blessing of healing but are they a persuasive biblical argument? I think it depends on whether you view these promises as pertaining to everything or only to our spiritual life or perhaps some combination.

[SteveF]

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts Steve

i would respond that persecution s/b a temporary setback and ultimately we s/b victorious.

What about people who were killed for their faith? Would this be considered a defeat since they didn’t reign in this life? Jesus seemed to think highly of them. Therefore, I think Paul had something else in mind.

Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

These expressions like "reigning in life" or "seek his righteousness and all these other things shall be added" as you suggested seem logically to be greater then the blessing of healing but are they a persuasive biblical argument? I think it depends on whether you view these promises as pertaining to everything or only to our spiritual life or perhaps some combination

I think when we consider the place of material and spiritual blessings we need to take into account the value system taught in scripture. Scripture, while clearly teaching God is our caring Father who will meet our needs, seems to place a high emphasis on spiritual blessing as opposed to material blessing. Here are a few scriptures to consider:

Php 4:11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content.
Php 4:12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Rather than Paul pointing to material things he points to Christ. Regardless of the circumstances he finds himself in (whether poor and in need or having more then he needs) it’s Christ who provides him contentment, peace and sustenance “I can do all things through him who strengthens me.” Paul seems to be pointing to the riches of knowing Christ, not the riches of material wealth.

Luk 12:15 And he said to them, "Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Jesus is saying that your life is not about material wealth but rather stresses your life should be “rich toward God." Vs 21

In the letters to the churches in Revelation there were only two churches that Jesus had nothing negative to say. One of them was them was Smyrna to which he wrote:

Rev 2:9 "'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich)

There was only one church that Jesus had ONLY negative things say. To the “rich” church of Laodicea he wrote:

Rev 3:17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.

Jesus called the poor and suffering church rich and the rich church poor. He also encouraged the “rich” Laodicean church to seek after TRUE riches.

Therefore, given the value system taught in scripture, I find it hard to imagine that Paul had material wealth in mind when he spoke of reigning in life.

Just my thoughts
God Bless
Steve

[steve7150]

Php 4:11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content.
Php 4:12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Rather than Paul pointing to material things he points to Christ. Regardless of the circumstances he finds himself in (whether poor and in need or having more then he needs) it’s Christ who provides him contentment, peace and sustenance “I can do all things through him who strengthens me.” Paul seems to be pointing to the riches of knowing Christ, not the riches of material wealth.

Luk 12:15 And he said to them, "Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Jesus is saying that your life is not about material wealth but rather stresses your life should be “rich toward God." Vs 21

In the letters to the churches in Revelation there were only two churches that Jesus had nothing negative to say. One of them was them was Smyrna to which he wrote:








SteveF, Thank you for your thoughtful response. I never mentioned "material wealth" when i referenced "reigning in life" or "all these other things" , rather i take it as being successful in whatever we are called to do by God. Just as Joshua was told he would be successful (1.18) if he meditated on God's Word , i see this as a principal throughout the OT and applicable in many different ways. Paul was successful in what he was called to do , martyers will be successful if that is their calling and if one is a teacher or a businessman the same principal applies. It's something that flows out of resting in Christ , knowing him and trusting him. In the parable of the talents God commended the one who took the talents and produced the most from what he was given, that's how i view prosperity and being successful. The one who buried the talent had a view of God as a "hard man" but the two others trusted God and were willing to take risks because apparently they knew God.

[Michelle]

I lost another friend last night to a sudden heart attack. It really confuses me why saving faith is easy, but healing faith is complicated.

I'm with you, petomaryland. I have Jesus, both in this life and the next, (so does my friend, by the way) and I am rich.