Consulting or calling up the dead

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steve7150
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by steve7150 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:08 pm

I don't really care which of these views turns out to have been correct, since either way the very next moment of awareness I (as a Christian) have will be pretty good, no matter how much or how little time has elapsed. OK?


I care because i'd like to be with Christ ASAP and so did Paul.

"For to me to live is Christ and to DIE IS GAIN. If i am to go on living in the body this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall i choose? I am torn between the two, I desire to DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST WHICH IS BETTER BY FAR." Phil 1.21-23

Paul said to die is gain, he clearly believes dying is to be with Christ immediately. And "depart and be with Christ" is present tense, all together, no separation.

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RND
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:48 pm

Suzana wrote:I don't really care which of these views turns out to have been correct, since either way the very next moment of awareness I (as a Christian) have will be pretty good, no matter how much or how little time has elapsed. OK?
Sure Suzanna, I understand. I didn't mean to imply you had no idea of the difference.

But one view is clearly Biblical and one view has it's roots squarely centered in the paganism of Nimrod. One view leads to truth, the other leads to Hollywood blockbuster's such as "Ghost," "The Sixth Sense" and "Poltergeist."
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by Suzana » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:39 pm

RND wrote:But one view is clearly Biblical…
To the eye of the beholder I guess…else there wouldn’t be a thousand different views each, on a thousand different topics, all deriving their interpretations from the same bible (and without any reference to pagan writings).
I’m using ‘thousand’ non-literally by the way.
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:59 pm

Suzana wrote:To the eye of the beholder I guess…else there wouldn’t be a thousand different views each, on a thousand different topics, all deriving their interpretations from the same bible (and without any reference to pagan writings).
I’m using ‘thousand’ non-literally by the way.
Actually, with regards to the state of the dead there has to be at least a 1,0001 different views, all non-Biblical. Christians that believe the soul is of a dual nature and that at death one nature dies and the other lives forever and ever by floating off somewhere espouse a very "non-Biblical" view of scripture.

Tell be Suzanna, what's the difference between a Hindu that thinks a soul floats off to live in a cow or a rat, a Taoist that believes the soul floats away into Uncle Charlie, and a Christian that believes the soul floats off into heaven? Who's right?
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by Suzana » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:42 pm

RND wrote:Tell be Suzanna, what's the difference between a Hindu that thinks a soul floats off to live in a cow or a rat, a Taoist that believes the soul floats away into Uncle Charlie, and a Christian that believes the soul floats off into heaven? Who's right?
Well, that would be the Christian, of course, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation.
If your view is the true one, then I understand it would be none of them.
However, if I firmly believed that the bible teaches the other view (of spirits departing to be with Christ at death, without their bodies), the fact that other world religions have some similarities in some aspects of their belief shouldn't deter me. I don't think it's wise to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
For example, I wouldn't stop believing the biblical account of Noah's flood just because there happens to be numerous alternate accounts, like this one from Greek legend:
Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men of the Bronze Age. Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest. All other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha (daughter of Epimetheus and Pandora), after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus, the God of Escape. At the bidding of Zeus, he threw stones over his head; they became men, and the stones which Pyrrha threw became women. That is why people are called laoi, from laas, "a stone."
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:06 am

Suzana wrote:Well, that would be the Christian, of course, the bible doesn't teach reincarnation.
I didn't ask that, I asked what's the difference in these views? The answer is there is no difference. All claim the sould leave the body and goes somewhere else. The Bible teaches no such thing.
If your view is the true one, then I understand it would be none of them.
My view is based on the clear description of the Bible.
However, if I firmly believed that the bible teaches the other view (of spirits departing to be with Christ at death, without their bodies), the fact that other world religions have some similarities in some aspects of their belief shouldn't deter me. I don't think it's wise to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
Well, at this point obvious evidence would be helpful then.
For example, I wouldn't stop believing the biblical account of Noah's flood just because there happens to be numerous alternate accounts, like this one from Greek legend:
Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men of the Bronze Age. Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest. All other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha (daughter of Epimetheus and Pandora), after floating in the chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus, the God of Escape. At the bidding of Zeus, he threw stones over his head; they became men, and the stones which Pyrrha threw became women. That is why people are called laoi, from laas, "a stone."
Flood Stories from Around the World
[/quote]

Seems that these confirm a worldwide flood which is what is taught in scripture. However, scripture does teach of souls leaving the body and floating off into the nether world, or even heaven.
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by Paidion » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:36 am

Steve7150 you wrote:I care because i'd like to be with Christ ASAP and so did Paul.

"For to me to live is Christ and to DIE IS GAIN. If i am to go on living in the body this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall i choose? I am torn between the two, I desire to DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST WHICH IS BETTER BY FAR." Phil 1.21-23

Paul said to die is gain, he clearly believes dying is to be with Christ immediately. And "depart and be with Christ" is present tense, all together, no separation.
Steve, as Suzana clearly pointed out, you wouldn't know the difference. For you, it would be immediate whether it occurred 2 seconds after your death or 2000 years after your death. In the passage you quoted, Paul understood that it would be immediate for him. For him, his departing would be followed immediately by his presence with Christ. But from our temporal point of view, Paul's presence with Christ is yet future!
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by Suzana » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:41 am

RND wrote:My view is based on the clear description of the Bible.
It is obviously not so clear to everyone.
I wrote:However, if I firmly believed that the bible teaches the other view (of spirits departing to be with Christ at death, without their bodies), the fact that other world religions have some similarities in some aspects of their belief shouldn't deter me. I don't think it's wise to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
RND wrote:Well, at this point obvious evidence would be helpful then.
Since I am kind of a fence-sitter on this issue, I think it would be better if I leave that to be taken up by those more dedicated to it if they wish to.
RND wrote:Seems that these confirm a worldwide flood which is what is taught in scripture. However, scripture does teach of souls leaving the body and floating off into the nether world, or even heaven.
There you are then. :D
But I guess you meant to include a "not" somewhere in that sentence. Hope it wasn't a Freudian slip!

Given my ambivalence, I will bow out of this discussion; on a lighter note, here is a quaint description of the flood I found by the brothers Grimm:

A louse and a flea were brewing beer in an eggshell. The louse fell in and burnt herself. This made the flea weep, which made the door creak, which made the broom sweep, which made the cart run, which made the ash-heap burn, which made the tree shake itself, which made the girl break her water-pitcher, which made the spring begin to flow. And in the spring's water everything was drowned.
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:48 am

Suzana wrote:It is obviously not so clear to everyone.
That's true.
Since I am kind of a fence-sitter on this issue, I think it would be better if I leave that to be taken up by those more dedicated to it if they wish to.
OK.
There you are then. :D
But I guess you meant to include a "not" somewhere in that sentence. Hope it wasn't a Freudian slip!
Can one have a Freudian slip typing?! Yes, there should have been a "not" in there!
Given my ambivalence, I will bow out of this discussion; on a lighter note, here is a quaint description of the flood I found by the brothers Grimm:

A louse and a flea were brewing beer in an eggshell. The louse fell in and burnt herself. This made the flea weep, which made the door creak, which made the broom sweep, which made the cart run, which made the ash-heap burn, which made the tree shake itself, which made the girl break her water-pitcher, which made the spring begin to flow. And in the spring's water everything was drowned.
[/quote]

Cute!
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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steve7150
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by steve7150 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:11 am

Steve7150 you wrote:
I care because i'd like to be with Christ ASAP and so did Paul.

"For to me to live is Christ and to DIE IS GAIN. If i am to go on living in the body this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall i choose? I am torn between the two, I desire to DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST WHICH IS BETTER BY FAR." Phil 1.21-23

Paul said to die is gain, he clearly believes dying is to be with Christ immediately. And "depart and be with Christ" is present tense, all together, no separation.


Steve, as Suzana clearly pointed out, you wouldn't know the difference. For you, it would be immediate whether it occurred 2 seconds after your death or 2000 years after your death. In the passage you quoted, Paul understood that it would be immediate for him. For him, his departing would be followed immediately by his presence with Christ. But from our temporal point of view, Paul's presence with Christ is yet future!





Paidion, As you acknowledged "Paul understood that it would be immediate for him" therefore is Paul's understanding correct for he did'nt get that idea from the OT as we all can agree. Since he was taught by Christ in Arabia ( i believe) should'nt we believe Paul?

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