Calvinism and Universalism

[RND]

I asked if you were joking because the article you pasted from wikipedia doesn't make your point at all. It seems like either you didn't read it, you read it without any comprehension, or you are making some kind of loony joke.

Not only does it make my point, it solidifies it. Just because something is "found" doesn't mean it never existed. That includes time, whether it be hours, minutes or seconds.

I guess you won this argument by default...congratulations?

Nah, no points in discussions.

[SteveF]

RND, we must be talking past each other or have a different definition of words. Paidion and Michelle are making perfect sense to me. I don’t understand how you’re making your point. Perhaps someone else reading this can clarify your position. Is there anyone you know who can read this thread and offer some feedback/insight?

Just to clarify something….

Do you consider the measurements of Celsius and Fahrenheit or Inches and Centimetres to be discoveries or inventions?

In modern times we now use time measurements smaller than a second. Instead of dividing a second into 60ths, they (thankfully) divided it into 10’s, 100’s, 1000th of a second etc…. Would you consider this a discovery or an invention?

[RND]

Just to clarify something….

Do you consider the measurements of Celsius and Fahrenheit or Inches and Centimetres to be discoveries or inventions?

In modern times we now use time measurements smaller than a second. Instead of dividing a second into 60ths, they (thankfully) divided it into 10’s, 100’s, 1000th of a second etc…. Would you consider this a discovery or an invention?

Celsius and Fahrenheit or Inches and Centimeters were definitely "invented" (I like "proposed" better) by man. Time is not a "proposal" made by man. Everything necessary for time, the stars, the moon and the sun were created by the word of God.

Steve, you asked if I would consider milliseconds, nanoseconds, etc as discoveries or inventions. They are "discoveries" because the existed before they were discovered. It's like discussing atoms, quarks, electrons, etc. These things existed long before they were discovered. Was the earth round before it was discovered it wasn't flat?

[SteveF]

Just to clarify something….

Do you consider the measurements of Celsius and Fahrenheit or Inches and Centimetres to be discoveries or inventions?

In modern times we now use time measurements smaller than a second. Instead of dividing a second into 60ths, they (thankfully) divided it into 10’s, 100’s, 1000th of a second etc…. Would you consider this a discovery or an invention?

Celsius and Fahrenheit or Inches and Centimeters were definitely "invented" (I like "proposed" better) by man. Time is not a "proposal" made by man. Everything necessary for time, the stars, the moon and the sun were created by the word of God.

Steve, you asked if I would consider milliseconds, nanoseconds, etc as discoveries or inventions. They are "discoveries" because the existed before they were discovered. It's like discussing atoms, quarks, electrons, etc. These things existed long before they were discovered. Was the earth round before it was discovered it wasn't flat?

Ok, the fact that man proposed to divide a second into millseconds instead of 60ths, would that not be man determining distinctions in measurements? In the same fashion, the distance between two objects exists, but we use miles/feet etc..as units of measurement to specify the distance. When we speak in terms of minutes, seconds etc... these are merely man's way of making distinction in time as well. A second was no more discovered than an inch. On the other hand distance and time are discoveries.

[RND]

Ok, the fact that man proposed to divide a second into millseconds instead of 60ths, would that not be man determining distinctions in measurements?

Did the millisecond or nanosecond exist before it was proposed? Of course. The light from the sun passes over the earth in milliseconds or nanoseconds just as it passes over the earth in seconds, minutes, and hours.

In the same fashion, the distance between two objects exists, but we use miles/feet etc..as units of measurement to specify the distance.

How about those that use the metric system? How many kilometers does light travel in a year?

When we speak in terms of minutes, seconds etc... these are merely man's way of making distinction in time as well. A second was no more discovered than an inch.

Has metric time become more popular that standard time yet? Metric time was something that was "developed" to be sure.

On the other hand distance and time are discoveries.

These are only "relevant" on earth.

[SteveF]

Did the millisecond or nanosecond exist before it was proposed? Of course. The light from the sun passes over the earth in milliseconds or nanoseconds just as it passes over the earth in seconds, minutes, and hours

RND, I don't understand your point. We're not talking about whether minutes, seconds and milliseconds exsited or not, we're talking about man's proposed units of measurement (which are completely arbitrary and man made). If that's the point you're missing then that explains the whole misunderstaning in this discussion. That's all Paidion and Michelle are saying. Whether I say something is an "arms length away" or "3 feet away". Or I say I can get something done in "two blinks of an eye" or "3 seconds" or whatever, these are all man made units of measurement.

All Paidion and Michelle are saying is the units of measurement (seconds, minutes etc.. are man made units....just like an inch or centemeter) are man made. They are not saying that the time frame itself did not exist.

[RND]

RND, I don't understand your point. We're not talking about whether minutes, seconds and milliseconds exsited or not, we're talking about man's proposed units of measurement (which are completely arbitrary and man made).

I disagree Steve, that's all. I believe that seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years are interrelated.

If that's the point you're missing then that explains the whole misunderstaning in this discussion. That's all Paidion and Michelle are saying. Whether I say something is an "arms length away" or "3 feet away". Or I say I can get something done in "two blinks of an eye" or "3 seconds" or whatever, these are all man made units of measurement.

All Paidion and Michelle are saying is the units of measurement (seconds, minutes etc.. are man made units....just like an inch or centemeter) are man made. They are not saying that the time frame itself did not exist.

I think maybe you are speaking for yourself and Michelle, but Paidon definitely doesn't believe that God created time. That's how this whole discussion started. It boils down to a "which came first the chicken or the egg" argument.

[RND]

Did God create the "universe?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

"In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single construct called the spacetime continuum. Spacetime is usually interpreted with space being three-dimensional and time playing the role of a fourth dimension that is of a different sort than the spatial dimensions. According to certain Euclidean space perceptions, the universe has three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. By combining space and time into a single manifold, physicists have significantly simplified a large number of physical theories, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels.

In classical mechanics, the use of Euclidean space instead of spacetime is appropriate, as time is treated as universal and constant, being independent of the state of motion of an observer. In relativistic contexts, however, time cannot be separated from the three dimensions of space, because the rate at which time passes depends on an object's velocity relative to the speed of light and also the strength of intense gravitational fields which can slow the passage of time."

Time is relative to the physics of space. The "4th dimension."

[SteveF]

I disagree Steve, that's all. I believe that seconds, minutes, hours, days, months and years are interrelated.

Ok, I guess we'll have to leave it at that. I truly think you're missing what we are all trying to state as the obvious. Since three of us have tried and failed perhaps a friend of yours can read this tread and provide feedback. I have to assume that you think we're saying something other than what you think we're saying.

[RND]

Ok, I guess we'll have to leave it at that. I truly think you're missing what we are all trying to state as the obvious. Since three of us have tried and failed perhaps a friend of yours can read this tread and provide feedback. I have to assume that you think we're saying something other than what you think we're saying.

I didn't say God didn't create time, Paidon did. I have been working that angel from the start. Time, as we know it to exist, was created by God. The "week" is clear evidence of God's creation of time.