Hello Don
In reply to you, I'll abbreviate & amend my post as follows:
1 Tim 4:10, NASB
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially {Gk, malista} of believers {Gk, pistwn}.
In rebuttal to the proposition that
malista, as used in 1 Tim 4:10, indicated "to be saved in a 'special' before-death-way," I offered argumentation based on
malista in 2 Tim 4:13.
I should mention that "to be saved in a 'special' before-death-way" wasn't the exact wording in the old thread {which was why I put it in quotes}. But it's consistent with the UR beliefs that were presented. Namely, that there are two "time frames" in which people can be saved:
A) Before death.
B) After death.
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With no intention to debate, I'll give the presuppostitions or main premises of both camps, using bold font in our text to illustrate:
UR
1. God will save ALL people, whether before or after their deaths.
1 Tim 4:10, NASB
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially {Gk, malista} of believers {Gk, pistwn}.
The bolded section is understood to be factual, literal, absolute truth without regard to time, whether in this age or the age to come. Though God hasn't saved everyone yet, He will: His
title is "the Saviour of all men" and not only reflects Who He is, but what He will do.
2. God saves people now in a "special pre-death way" as is reflected in the phrase:
especially of believers.
"Especially" points to a "special 'now time frame' kind of salvation." In other words,
one of the two "special whens" or, B) After death {above}.
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Non-UR
1. God saves anyone from among ALL people
who believes before they die.
1 Tim 4:10, NASB
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
The reality is: God saves only believers. This reality continues till the end of the age: Salvation is offered to all who live or will ever live. Pre-mortem salvation is the only salvation offered.
2. It is only God who can and does save. As such He exists as the Savior of any and all men. However, salvation
requires the particular of belief to be effectual, as reflected in the phrase:
especially of believers.
"Especially" separates living believers from
"all [other living] men" who do not believe. God, The Savior, is
the potential Savior of all men, whether they accept Him or not: No other can save. God is
the effectual Savior only to or for those who believe as per #1, above.
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I chose 2 Tim 4:13 as it was a 'close usage' of
malista from Paul's writings, being in his other letter to Timothy.
Malista is an adjective in the genitive case. The genetive case, as I'm sure you know, is used in different ways, depending on the context, sentence structure, and so on.
In general, the genitive case describes or defines. It is the case of ‘quality’, ‘attribute’, ‘description’, or ‘kind’. It tends to be adjectival in nature and mainly answers "What kind?"
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Summary, with our text
UR and Non-UR presuppositions or main premises are there to see.
In rebuttal to the proposition that
malista, as used in 1 Tim 4:10, indicated "to be saved in a 'special' before-death-way," I offered argumentation based on
malista as used in 2 Tim 4:13.
1 Tim 4:10, NASB
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially {Gk, malista} of believers {Gk, pistwn}.
Amended rebuttal of the UR interpretation.
In 1 Tim 4:10, the text itself doesn't describe or define "What kind of
time frames are there when God will, eventually, save all men?" While the proposition that God will save all people could theoretically be true; the text doesn't plainly state or address it, imo. However, It can be argued for, based on the UR literal interpretation of the phrase:
God, who is the Savior of all men,.
Paul's "time frame" in 1 Tim 4:10 is present tense. The "believers" {Gk,
pistwn, another adjective in the genetive case}, indicates
those among all the living who are believing.
So, it was and is my position that "especially" {
malista} was used in both 1 Tim 4:10 and 2 Tim 4:13 to describe and delineate between "What two kinds of people?" in the former verse, and "What two kinds of documents?" in the latter.
I don't see Paul addressing nor supporting the primary UR proposition that God will save all men; some now, some post-mortem. However, I grant that it can be deduced or, dare I say, imported?, from theological beliefs...which takes us back to the alternate and opposing presuppositions or main premises of the opposing camps.
If Paul's purpose in 1 Tim 4:10 was directly and specifically eschatological, as was argued on the old forum to describe different "time frames of when people can be saved: before or after death"; I think Paul would have stated it plainly and clearly with something like, "God, the savior of all men, saves believers specially now, and He will save all in eternity." URs believe this to be true but I don't see Paul saying it in the text.
I see 1 Tim 4:10 as part of the regular discourse in Paul's larger narrative of the letter, and that he wasn't suddenly addressing any "time frames" other than the present tense. I don't think he was implying or hinting at any other time frame than this....
To wrap it up, and in my opinion:
Paul didn't address "What different 'time frames' will some be saved in and all be saved in?"
Rather, he wrote simply and clearly regarding "What kind of people
are saved?"
In any event, I'm glad I studied and even debated the verse. For me, anyway, it doesn't support UR beliefs, though I see and understand how they can be interpreted as such....
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Outside of this, Don, I don't know how to better explain things....
Thanks, readers, and have a good day,