The Nativity
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The Nativity
Where did the wise men find Jesus - in the stable at His birth or later?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
The wise men did not find the baby Jesus in the stable, but the "young child" Jesus "in the house" (Matt.2:11). This was apparently about two years after Christ's birth, if we can assume that the star appeared to them at the time of His birth. Herod, at least, believed so, in that he killed all the sons of Bethlehem two years old and younger "according to the time which he had determined from the wise men" (compare Matt.2:7 & 16).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Steve, I'm confused here. After Mary's purification was finished they headed up to Jerusalem to offer their sacrifices. Then we're told Josepeh and his family went to Nazareth (Luke 2:39), not Bethlehem. Yet, Joseph is warned to flee because of Harod.... but Harod only ordered killings to take place in Bethlehem. Nazareth, if I'm not mistaken, is way north of Bethlehem so why would they need to flee? Could you please shed more light on this issue?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Can anyone help me out on this? I'm going through Steve's chronological teaching through the gospels (taking serious notes in the process) and I can't get past Matthew 3. It's the first time I've gone through the material this slowly and I want to be as comprehensive as possible. Surely countless others have pondered this issue of the nativity. Share some light with a brother!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Understanding the proper order of events requires a harmonizing of the two accounts (Matthew and Luke). Here is the order of events, as I see them, when we harmonize the two nativity narratives:
1.Gabriel's appearance to Zacharias and Mary, announcing the births of John and Jesus, respectively (Luke 1:5-38)
2. Mary's visit to Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:39-56)
3. John the baptist's birth (Luke 1:57-79)
4. When Mary returns to Nazareth, news of her pregnancy reaches Joseph, who contemplates ending the betrothal, until Gabriel comes and tells him to go ahead and marry Mary (Mathew 1:18-24)
5. Joseph and Mary travel to Bethlehem to be registered, according to Caesar's decree (Luke 2:1-5)
6. Jesus is born in Bethleham (Luke 2:6-7/ Matthew 2:1)
7. Shepherds are told of the birth by angels, and visit the stable (Luke 2:8-20)
8. Jesus is circumcized at eight days old, and then dedicated as the firstborn of his mother at 40 days old—both in Jerusalem. Simeon and Anna encounter the holy family on the latter occasion (Luke 2:21-38)
9. The holy family lodge in Bethlehem for about two years, at the end of which time, the wise men visit them from the East (Matthew 2:1-12)
10. Warned by an angel, Joseph takes Mary and Jesus into Egypt, just ion time to avoid Herod's slaughter of the innocent children of Bethlehem (Mathew 2:13-18)
11. After Herod's death, an angel tells Joseph to bring his family back out of Egypt. Joseph first considers Judea as a settling place, but is uncomfortable about Herod Archelaus' rule of that province, he moves the family back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:19-23)
12. Jesus grows up in Nazareth (Matthew 2:23/ Luke 2:39-40)
1.Gabriel's appearance to Zacharias and Mary, announcing the births of John and Jesus, respectively (Luke 1:5-38)
2. Mary's visit to Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:39-56)
3. John the baptist's birth (Luke 1:57-79)
4. When Mary returns to Nazareth, news of her pregnancy reaches Joseph, who contemplates ending the betrothal, until Gabriel comes and tells him to go ahead and marry Mary (Mathew 1:18-24)
5. Joseph and Mary travel to Bethlehem to be registered, according to Caesar's decree (Luke 2:1-5)
6. Jesus is born in Bethleham (Luke 2:6-7/ Matthew 2:1)
7. Shepherds are told of the birth by angels, and visit the stable (Luke 2:8-20)
8. Jesus is circumcized at eight days old, and then dedicated as the firstborn of his mother at 40 days old—both in Jerusalem. Simeon and Anna encounter the holy family on the latter occasion (Luke 2:21-38)
9. The holy family lodge in Bethlehem for about two years, at the end of which time, the wise men visit them from the East (Matthew 2:1-12)
10. Warned by an angel, Joseph takes Mary and Jesus into Egypt, just ion time to avoid Herod's slaughter of the innocent children of Bethlehem (Mathew 2:13-18)
11. After Herod's death, an angel tells Joseph to bring his family back out of Egypt. Joseph first considers Judea as a settling place, but is uncomfortable about Herod Archelaus' rule of that province, he moves the family back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:19-23)
12. Jesus grows up in Nazareth (Matthew 2:23/ Luke 2:39-40)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Two Years Old
Steve,
The idea that Jesus was two years old does not seem logical to me. Here is why.
Herod obviously was taking into account a margin of error when he killed all the children in a two year age range. If you were to pick two years and younger, it would seem logical that your margin of error was at least one year, therefore giving Jesus a maximum logical age of about 12 months at the time. If Herod's chosen margin of error is plus or minus two years, then Jesus would have logically been a newborn. Herod knew from the wise men that the child was born so he didn't need to kill the newborns for the future two years to maintain his two year margin of error.
Herod would want to eliminate older and younger children than the one he was targeting, just in case the child did not look his age. Herod was a bit crazy, but he was too good at killing his rivals to make an error like killing kids two and under in order to kill a two year old.
Glenn
The idea that Jesus was two years old does not seem logical to me. Here is why.
Herod obviously was taking into account a margin of error when he killed all the children in a two year age range. If you were to pick two years and younger, it would seem logical that your margin of error was at least one year, therefore giving Jesus a maximum logical age of about 12 months at the time. If Herod's chosen margin of error is plus or minus two years, then Jesus would have logically been a newborn. Herod knew from the wise men that the child was born so he didn't need to kill the newborns for the future two years to maintain his two year margin of error.
Herod would want to eliminate older and younger children than the one he was targeting, just in case the child did not look his age. Herod was a bit crazy, but he was too good at killing his rivals to make an error like killing kids two and under in order to kill a two year old.
Glenn
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Maybe the wise men had noticed the new star two years before?
D.
D.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Steve, I guess I'm confused by Luke 2:39 which states, "When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth."
From the wording it sounds like they went straight from Jerusalem to Nazareth. Is Luke just skipping way ahead in this passage? We know from Matthew that there was a long detour involved. Luke does jump to Jesus at age 12 in the same chapter so it's not unlike him. Perhaps the story of Harod and fleeing to Egypt was so widespread at the time of Luke's writing that he didn't feel it necessary to mention it. Luke is so detailed in his style that this would almost have to be the case. Would you agree?
From the wording it sounds like they went straight from Jerusalem to Nazareth. Is Luke just skipping way ahead in this passage? We know from Matthew that there was a long detour involved. Luke does jump to Jesus at age 12 in the same chapter so it's not unlike him. Perhaps the story of Harod and fleeing to Egypt was so widespread at the time of Luke's writing that he didn't feel it necessary to mention it. Luke is so detailed in his style that this would almost have to be the case. Would you agree?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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JC,
I have never found it to be a problem that Luke or any other historian would omit details about his subject in order to include others more to his interest.
I believe that skipping from the dedication to the relocation in Nazareth is not very different from the skipping over the next 10 or more years (as you have mentioned). The Gospels only record about 39 days of the life of Jesus, and skip everything in between those days. Historians are of necessity selective in what they choose to record.
I have never found it to be a problem that Luke or any other historian would omit details about his subject in order to include others more to his interest.
I believe that skipping from the dedication to the relocation in Nazareth is not very different from the skipping over the next 10 or more years (as you have mentioned). The Gospels only record about 39 days of the life of Jesus, and skip everything in between those days. Historians are of necessity selective in what they choose to record.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve