Is There Harm in teaching Universalism?

[Guest]

Bob,

Valid points to consider. When you mentioned in your post, the lie of the serpent, "You shall not surely die"; imo, this is the central reason to reject
Universalism as a false doctrine, or a "doctrine of demons". You have to follow out to the end of where their "truth" leads to understand its implications.

If Gen 3:4 is the "central reason to reject Universalism", then your rejection is based on a misapplication of scripture. The serpent was not suggesting anything remotely close to Universalism to Eve. At the time Genesis 3:4 was written, the Hebrews had no firm concept of an afterlife. We could discuss (in a seperate thread) what the "death" spoken of in Gen 3:4 is referring to, but it certainly was not eternal torment.

It seems to me the wicked's final outcome will not be decided upon an ignorance of the Gospel, but the result of a wilfull rejection of it.

So, are you implying that someone stands a better chance of avoiding Hell if they never hear the Gospel, and therefore can't be held guilty of rejecting it? If so, perhaps we should do everything possible to hide the Gospel, since hearing it might result in eternal damnation!


Homer,

First of all, the apostles had much to say about being saved. Among both Jews and Gentiles of that day there appears to have been a common understanding of the consequences of facing a final judgement. It was not necessary to dwell on hell, it was an implied consequence of not being saved IMO.

That Hell was an implied consequence is an assumption on your part, based on the presuppositions that you bring to the text.

It seems rather odd no consequence was mentioned of such an important matter, unless, that is, it was understood. People would naturally want to know. Luke's narratives are brief and he may not have considered it important to include what was said on this.

Or the alternative is that the consequence (eternal torment) is not mentioned because it was not in their minds. It's been pointed out that there is no mention of eternal torment on the Old Testament, and we know with relative certainty that up until the Maccabean period there was little, if any, concept of Hell among the Jews. At the time of Jesus, there were various viewpoints on the afterlife.

Regarding your anecdote about Ricky, the problem with anecdotes is that they can be dredged up to support any viewpoint. I know from first-hand knowledge of dialoging and debating with hardcore atheists that the doctrine of eternal torment has been a key factor (if not the the key factor) in rejecting Christianity for many. All of that is beside the point though.

The preaching of Universalism is reported to have caused a great many to fall off that ladder in the 19th century!

Universalism or Christian Universalism? How many fell "off that ladder"? What is your source on this historical event? I would like to learn more about it.

The insurmountable problem for the CU who disbelieves the great majority of the Lexicons regarding the meaning of aionios is this: they can not tell us with any certainty what the word means regarding the punishment of the lost.

Here's an interesting experiment you can do: Pull out all of your Greek Lexicons and look up the word aion. In most cases, one of the definitions will be "a period of time" or "an age". Now look up the adjective of aion, which is aionios. Chances are, many of your Lexicons will only show the meaning as "without beginning or end" or "eternal", and will not show "pertaining to an age". How could it be that an adjective would lose the meaning of the noun that it is based upon? Could it be that some of these popular Lexicons (written 1,700 years or more after the fact) contain certain doctrinal presuppositions?
If aionios can only mean eternal, as some Lexicons imply, then the Aaronic priesthood is eternal and the possession of Canaan by the Jews is eternal and Jonah is still in that fish. These are just a few examples of aionios in the LXX.

It is not surprising to read of the concern among Universalists in the past whether this doctrine should be preached to the lost or remain an esoteric doctrine for the few.

That's strange, every Christian Universalist I've read believes that it is wonderful news which should be proclaimed from the rooftops!

Rick,

One of the weaknesses of Pascal's Wager is that it can be flipped around. For example, what if Universal Reconciliation is true, but a person is so turned off by hellfire and brimstone evangelism that they reject Jesus (or come to believe that hell is inevitable for them). What untold misery might come to fruition as a result? I've seen this exact thing many, many times.

As far as I know, every Christian Universalist that has posted has said that aionion punishment is a thing to be avoided. I'm quite certain none of us tell unbelievers it's no big deal whether or not they become followers of Jesus. On the flip side though, I have to wonder if some will be held accountable for so badly distorting the image of God as to cause people to turn away from Him.

I've already told you what I tell unbelievers (or believers) when the subject of Hell comes up. I explain all of the viewpoints to them.

[_Rick_C]

Hi Rae,

So really, the main issue for you guys that are not Universalists is not the doctrine of Universalism in and of itself, but the possibility that unbelievers could grab hold of the doctrine and use it as an excuse to not come to Jesus. Am I reading you guys correctly?

My answer is, "Both."

As a non-universalist I naturally can't and don't 'recommend' universalist doctrines to anyone. I've even had thoughts about stopping posting about it; I mean, not discussing or debating it at all. My reasoning was: Perhaps if I just stop, maybe the topic will 'get quiet' and someone out there won't learn about universalism. And if they don't know about it, they can't believe in it....

When I said I don't recommend that even convinced universalists tell unbelievers that they can be with God without becoming a Christian (which I obviously, don't believe), I suppose I was trying to get them to seriously consider the 'wager' I posted.

It was also for the 'somewhat convinced' or those who are 'leaning' toward universalism or 'open' to it. Anything I can do to stop what I believe to be false teaching from being spread around....

But since it looks like it's here to stay, at least on this forum, I guess I was making a plea, begging, if you will.

I don't know how widely universalism is accepted among 'evangelicals'. Where I live, I don't know of any who do. But I live in a relatively small town in Ohio which is kind of in "the Bible Belt". I'm not sure how strong the movement is nationally or in the western world. I don't think it's really all that big in the USA but don't have any statistics.

I think it's a good thing to know as many beliefs as possible on any theological topic, even like learning about Islam and other religions, etc. I like Steve (Gregg's) lectures because he gives all views, then his, if he has one. Or he will tell which one is most likely and why. Where I differ with Steve on his "Three Views of Hell" is I don't consider universalism to be a position that has scriptural support. Universalists have their verses they cite and so on. But I haven't agreed with any of their interpretations on a single verse. I understand how and why they interpret them as they do but just don't agree with them at all.

Maybe an undecided person will read my wager and come to reject universalism. That would be good, imo. Perhaps a non-Christian will see it and decide universalism is right and that they would rather go on ahead and be a sinner all their lives since they can pay for it all later. That would be a bad thing, imo.

Thank you for asking this question, Rae.
Rick

[Guest]

So the question might be asked "Is there harm in teaching eternal torment"?(Steve 7150)

I'm starting to think perhaps there may be.
I had accepted this teaching of never-ending torture by literal burning in a lake of fire all my life, as I was taught, assuming it was a doctrine cast in iron, so would not dream of questioning it; after all I could see the verses there in my bible.
This teaching was a big issue & stumbling block to my daughter (who is not yet a Jesus follower). I always had trouble explaining it to her; there seemed to be no rational arguments for it, and I always had to come back to resting the case on this: I know that God is just, and I am prepared to trust Him that there will not be any injustice done in any of His judgements, even if I could not understand some at this time.
My daughter's question was 'why would God torture anyone for ever? why not just kill them?'
When I learned that there were valid reasons (not coming from cults) for understanding this teaching differently, I started looking into the whole concept a bit more seriously.
Another issue I always had (when beleiving in eternal torture) was with hearing statements like "we all deserve to go to hell".
I fully accept that God, as the Creator, has a perfect right to do what He wishes with His creation. Like a potter with a marred vessel, He is fully at liberty to smash it & start over again, & not expect the pot to complain. (but could not the pot complain if then God decided to invest it with feelings, immortality, & throw it into a furnace for ever?)?
However, God has stressed on numerous occasions to His creation that He is a God of justice, He in fact hates injustice.
Since He made us in His image, would not our sense of justice derive from His?
I would not for example think it just to approve a law that punishes someone to 80 years of hard labour in Siberia, just for failing to observe a "keep off the grass" sign.
To use Steve G's analogy (elsewhere, & very helpful, thankyou, in reference to inheriting sin nature), of a baby born to a mother addicted to crack cocaine, not having committed any sin but nevertheless having to live with the side effects:
(my thoughts now) how could we possibly be justified in then punishing this baby for the rest of it's life?

[Guest]

Rick,

I don't know how widely universalism is accepted among 'evangelicals'. Where I live, I don't know of any who do. But I live in a relatively small town in Ohio which is kind of in "the Bible Belt". I'm not sure how strong the movement is nationally or in the western world. I don't think it's really all that big in the USA but don't have any statistics.

I bet if you were to scratch the surface, you would find a whole lot of evangelical Christians who believe it, even though they're not part of any organized movement.

BTW, it has been said that everyone is a Universalist when it comes to their own loved ones!

[_Rick_C]

1 Cor 6 (NASB) 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

JESUS REIGNS!!! and everybody needs to know it, Amen.

[Guest]

The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God while they are in that condition. As Paul clearly says; "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." How can one come under the rule and reign (baselia) of God until He receives Christ and repents? As Jesus said, ""I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

So, really, we've just circled back around to the question of whether or not this repentance can occur after physical death.

Christian Reconciliation teaches that ultimately all sin will be put away and all will be reconciled to God in Christ, so that "...at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Then God will be "all in all." Jesus does indeed reign!

[Guest]

My daughter's question was 'why would God torture anyone for ever? why not just kill them?'


Suzana, Your daughter has wisdom beyond her years. My daughter had the same issue but now is truly able to love a God who does what His Son tells us to do.

[_Rick_C]

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[Guest]

Danny,

Quote:
First of all, the apostles had much to say about being saved. Among both Jews and Gentiles of that day there appears to have been a common understanding of the consequences of facing a final judgement. It was not necessary to dwell on hell, it was an implied consequence of not being saved IMO.


That Hell was an implied consequence is an assumption on your part, based on the presuppositions that you bring to the text.

Nope, not based on biblical text, but on what I have learned from reading Edersheim, et al.

Regarding your anecdote about Ricky, the problem with anecdotes is that they can be dredged up to support any viewpoint.

You are correct about anecdotes. But it was intended as a metaphor. Thought people would catch that, my mistake.

Universalism or Christian Universalism? How many fell "off that ladder"? What is your source on this historical event?

Campbell - Skinner debate, circa 1840.

Here's an interesting experiment you can do: Pull out all of your Greek Lexicons and look up the word aion. In most cases, one of the definitions will be "a period of time" or "an age". Now look up the adjective of aion, which is aionios. Chances are, many of your Lexicons will only show the meaning as "without beginning or end" or "eternal", and will not show "pertaining to an age". How could it be that an adjective would lose the meaning of the noun that it is based upon?

And how did aion become used for a period of time when it is a compound of Greek words meaning "always being"? I dunno, but perhaps.......

If aionios can only mean eternal, as some Lexicons imply, then the Aaronic priesthood is eternal and the possession of Canaan by the Jews is eternal and Jonah is still in that fish. These are just a few examples of aionios in the LXX.

....aionios was used figuratively, as the English word "forever" is more often than in a literal sense. Do you think aionios was meant literally or figuratively in Matthew 25:46?

That's strange, every Christian Universalist I've read believes that it is wonderful news which should be proclaimed from the rooftops!

They must be far and few between, or too busy writing; I never hear about it except on this forum.

[Guest]

They must be far and few between, or too busy writing; I never hear about it except on this forum.

I kid you not Homer, a couple of hours ago I decided to watch a little TV.
I flipped over to MSNBC and to my surprise, a program had just begun about Carlton Pierson. Pierson was a once very popular Pentecostal pastor who embraced Christian Universalism and suffered a considerable backlash as a result. This was the last thing I expected to see on a news channel.