"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[Guest]

Does the word "all" mean "potentially all" or "all who are chosen by God"?
According to Homer all means "potentially all" but that would render the word meaningless.
According to Calvinists all means the few chosen by God but alas that would make "all" misleading.
The reason it's so important is that it's used dozens of times , mostly by Paul and pretty much brushed off, like this verse.

"because we have put our hope in the living God , who is the Savior of EVERYONE ESPECIALLY of those who believe" 1 Tim 4.10

Here is a distinction between believers and unbelievers yet both are clearly included. Is this an isolated verse, not at all.

What is the path to salvation through Jesus after this life where as Paidion has figured perhaps 1% of humanity during this age truly follow Christ?

Everyone knows unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire, (Rev 20.15)then what?

The saved are justified and already have life yet ,

"I WILL give of the fountain of the water of life FREELY to him who thirsts" Rev 21.6 Christ is speaking in future tense to those who don't yet have life.

"He who overcomes shall inherit all things" Rev 21.7 Believers have already overcome so by default Christ is speaking to the people who have yet to overcome.

Speaking of New Jerusalem "It's gates shall not be shut at all by day" Rev 21.25 It sounds to me like an invitation to unbelievers who are in the LOF.

"Blessed are those who do his commandments , that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" Rev 22.14 The believers from this age were already in the city when it first came down from heaven.

"And the Spirit and the Bride (believers) say, Come and let him who hears say , Come and let him who thirsts come. Whosoever desires , let him take the water of life freely" Rev 22.17

[Guest]

Hello Todd,

You quoted [part of] what I wrote:
According to Paul, all who have sinned [with or without the Law of God] will perish on a Day when God will judge all through Jesus Christ. Some will perish; Some will be saved.

Then replied:
I didn't understand your answer the first time you posted, and I must confess, I still don't understand. As best as I can tell from what you have said, those who never hear the gospel are destined to perish (hell). Is that what you said?

Just like with the Bible...one has to read the whole context (of posts).

Okay, I'll try for the third time to explain things better. Here goes....

The Apostles (and Paul in this case) taught:
a. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Ro 3:23).
b. Those who know and those don't know God's Law have done this and will perish unless they are saved (Ro 2:11-15).
c. All will be judged by Christ Jesus on the Day God has appointed (Ro 2:16).
d. Law-knowers, and those ignorant of the Law alike, will be saved if they call on the name of the Lord (Ro 10:12-13).
e. God raised Jesus from the dead and whoever believes this in their heart and confesses "Jesus IS LORD" will be saved (Ro 10:9-10).
f. No one can call on the name of the Lord if they haven't heard about Him (Ro 10:14).
g. No one can believe in the Lord unless someone goes and tells them Who He is (Ro 10:14).
h. Unless God sends someone to them they cannot hear (Ro 10:14).
i. All who hear will not accept the message (Ro 10:15).

Sinners are destined to perish unless they are saved. Those who hear the Gospel about Jesus and believe will be saved from their sins and will not perish. Others who hear and do not believe will perish in their sins.

I really don't know how to explain this any better, Todd....

I wrote::
3. Raising the just and unjust to final judgment is God's plan for humanity. Why He is going to do things this way is beyond what I can fully grasp.

You replied:
To raise someone only to destroy them again makes no sense to me. I'm still persuaded that the traditional view as you have described is not correct. Let each of us be persuaded in our own mind.

Yes, if one isn't persuaded in one's own mind; well, who else can do that for you?

Comments:
N.T. Wright and I both would say God never does "only" things! All He does has purpose and meaning in accordance with His sovereign plans and Grand Design. It is our duty and "theological job" to come to understand His plans and purposes to the best of our ability and in so far as He has made them known to us.

If something He does or will do doesn't make sense to me I can---and should, imo---study it more to better understand it, or accept it (while not necessarily liking it)...or simply reject it (which I very highly wouldn't recommend)!

It doesn't matter to me what I think God "should" do: I'm not God, for one thing! As it is written, "For who can know the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" ('Hey God, don't you think you should do this? and not do that?' Nope: that's not how it's done)! So I want to seek and learn about what He does and will do in order to get myself in line with His Program!

A "God", theoretically speaking, could possibly resurrect Hitler and "poof" him into a really nice guy. However, 'Sovereign Laws' that only the God of the Bible knows the entirety of prevent this from happening. What we know about these 'Sovereign Laws' tells us a few things: a. what we do---or don't do---in life is VERY important!, b. what we do---and don't do---cannot be undone or done after we die, c. this life is about as "serious" as any life can GET! because, d. we will give an account for everything we did and didn't do in it!!! and lastly, f. our 'eternal' destiny rides on all of the above.

I wrote:
4. "Death" which is personified in 1 Co 15 and Rev 20 will no longer "be" in the New Heavens and New Earth. It just won't be [a] reality after it is done away with. The Second Death is the last of all deaths. From that point on it won't be experienced.

You replied:
So it seems you are saying that the 'destruction of death' means that there will be no more dying - that no one will die any more. While that may be correct, I think that if someone is dead then death still exists and has not been destroyed. At least that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Thanks for your reply. God bless you, Rick.

I sort of view the future of death like dinosaurs. Once they were, now they're not. But unlike the dinosaurs whose remains can be found; for those who experience the Second Death it will go further and be as if they had never existed (is where my thinking is on it right now, anyway). At the same time, we who will live on with God and Christ will probably have some kind of remembrance of this past world/universe.

Todd, God bless you too.
You know, I don't have every Bible mystery solved...but God does!

In Jesus,
Rick

[Guest]

Steve7150,

You keep referring to the last part of Revelation as though it is in sequence which seems doubtful at best. At the end of chapter 20 we find all those "not written in the book of life cast into the lake of fire". Then in chapter 22:6-21 we read the following:

6. Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

Are these servants the angel is sent to in the lake of fire?


7. “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

And here Jesus has not yet come, and are those keeping the words of prophecy in the lake of fire?

8. Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9. Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10. And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
12. “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Sounds like the "sheep and goats" judgement has not yet happened.

13. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
14. Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Are these folks doing His commandments in the lake of fire, and where is the "outside" spoken of? Again it seems judgement has not taken place.

16. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Are there churches in the lake of fire? If it is a reference to those in heaven, wouldn't there be one church (assembly)?

17. And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
18. For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19. and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20. He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen

And for the third time the passage speaks of the Lord as having not yet come.

Steve, are you sure this passage refers to events that occur after the lake of fire? I believe it to be an epilogue. It is of no help to your cause.

[Guest]

Hi Homer & STEVE....as we've had several sub-topics and "sidebars" going on here....

"because we have put our hope in the living God , who is the Savior of EVERYONE ESPECIALLY of those who believe" 1 Tim 4.10

Here is a distinction between believers and unbelievers yet both are clearly included. Is this an isolated verse, not at all.

My IMOs on 1 Tim 4:10:
1. God is the Savior of everyone potentially and,
2. is the Savior of believers in particular.

In both cases God is THE Savior of humanity in actuality. But it is only to believers that His salvation is realized (personally embraced or experienced).

Other than this, I've been listening to Steve (Gregg's) lectures on Rev 21-22 again and have re-listened to Ken Gentry (a postmillennialist) also. I wonder if we should start a new thread on Rev 20-22? I'm a study addict...what can I say?

God bless,
Rick

[Guest]

Rick,

I said:

I didn't understand your answer the first time you posted, and I must confess, I still don't understand. As best as I can tell from what you have said, those who never hear the gospel are destined to perish (hell). Is that what you said?

You replied (in part):

f. No one can call on the name of the Lord if they haven't heard about Him (Ro 10:14).
g. No one can believe in the Lord unless someone goes and tells them Who He is (Ro 10:14).
h. Unless God sends someone to them they cannot hear (Ro 10:14).
i. All who hear will not accept the message (Ro 10:15).

Sinners are destined to perish unless they are saved. Those who hear the Gospel about Jesus and believe will be saved from their sins and will not perish. Others who hear and do not believe will perish in their sins.

Okay, now I understand. You believe that Paul says that those who never hear the gospel have no chance to be saved, and will therefore perish in the Lake of Fire. I'm sorry Rick, but I can never believe that. If that were true, the vast majority of mankind has no chance. Doesn't that sound like a sort of Calvanism to you?

You said:

Comments:
N.T. Wright and I both would say God never does "only" things! All He does has purpose and meaning in accordance with His sovereign plans and Grand Design. It is our duty and "theological job" to come to understand His plans and purposes to the best of our ability and in so far as He has made them known to us.

If something He does or will do doesn't make sense to me I can---and should, imo---study it more to better understand it, or accept it (while not necessarily liking it)...or simply reject it (which I very highly wouldn't recommend)!

It doesn't matter to me what I think God "should" do: I'm not God, for one thing! As it is written, "For who can know the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" ('Hey God, don't you think you should do this? and not do that?' Nope: that's not how it's done)! So I want to seek and learn about what He does and will do in order to get myself in line with His Program!

Yes, you are correct, God will do what He will. But I don't believe He will do something that makes no sense. And yes, it is very possible that I just don't understand yet. However, we know that what He does will be consistent with what Jesus said. Consider this:

Matt 5:43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

According to Jesus, God's perfect love requires that He will do good to his enemies. Neither 'everlasting punishment' (as commonly taught) nor annihilation is good.

Todd

[Guest]

Paidion,

Quote: "If God, however, chose to punish eternally for retribution (or as you say, to sastisfy His "justice"), that would be unjust."


Herein lies the problem and, imo, our sometimes "flawed" view of the Justice of God.
I mean flawed in the sense of incomplete, lacking or simply out of our own preference to "explain away" the "hard sayings" or difficulties with the most prominent theme in all Scripture- the Justice of God and what He requires of us in our relationship with Him and with our fellow man.

The Justice of God (in all its aspects) really is at the heart of several threads running on the forum. "Screaming loudly" in my minds eye, is what Abraham asked the LORD when He was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah; " Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked"?...Will
not the Judge of all the earth do right?"..Gen 18:23;25.

It was the Justice of God that played a central role in my conversion to Jesus our Lord. It was not by a "turn or burn" threat that converted me to Christ. No "Jonathan Edwards" style of preaching the Gospel by "dangleing me over the Pit of Hell" played a central role either. The process was through several dreams which led to a final confrontation with the Law of God in Matt. 5-7, with all its implications.

There was one particular dream where God showed me "where I was at in my life". When I was a much younger man, I had a job with a city public
traffic safety dept. My job involved painting crosswalks and street legends.
One of the tools we used to re-paint crosswalks with was a rather long "stencil" board. You could say metaphorically, we painted out "the pathway" of where people "should" walk in relative safety.
In this dream, I was in my old neighborhood where I spent my youth. My house was in a cul-de-sac. Facing to the east was a prominant peak that stood out upon the hills. I was standing in the middle of my street with this crosswalk stencil outstreched in my hands as if I were preparing to paint out a "pathway". My back was to this peak. I was facing west.
Suddenly in my dream, an intense circular wind began to blow. Leaves were being taken up by it. There was the sound of rolling thunder that caused me to turn around and face the eastward peak. I then turned my head and looked over my shoulder to this peak. The clouds were billowing upward, hudge clouds! They began to rotate above the peak. As they rotated counterclockwise, Moses appeared in the clouds, holding the two tables of the Ten Commandments! I "swung" completely around with my crosswalk stencil in hand and faced Moses. The wind continued until it almost blew me over. There were "no words". Then it subsided. The leaves settled. The clouds rotated back around and hid Moses from my view. All was at peace. I woke up wondering what I had experienced. This dream happened before I ever had a relationship with Jesus or started any form of fellowship with Christians. But, it makes a lot of sense to me now. The "pathway" of my life represented by the crosswalk stencil I held, was in complete opposition to God. I "turned" in the dream toward God's Law. I eventually turned to Him in Christ, the One who fulfilled the Law. Jesus took the "blow due me". Here is where God restores or calls us into the community of faith. I repented. God showed me mercy.

Part of the Law is penal and retrobutive. We are not called to be either a "law unto ourselves", nor take the Law into our own hands by taking vengence. "Vengence is mine", says the Lord, "I will repay". Sometimes the provision of the Law is restoritive, with a just means by which a person is restored back to the community of faith. Usually some form of restitution must be made or in the case of Israel under the Mosaic covenant, a proper sacrifice was required, i.e, blood sacrifice, to pardon the guilty party. Those of course who refused, were under the curse or threat of the retrobutive provision of the law that required the death penalty, that 'blood sacrifice' will not cover".. Jesus by no means changed or relaxed that standard of justice in anyway shape or form. He completely upheld the Law, even broadened it by making it "eternal" in its fullest application. For those who refused Him, especially the scribes and Pharisees, there was no mercy shown or to be shown if they remained in their hardened condition, not only in this age, but also in the age to come. Let us not mince words with Jesus! His blood does not benefit or remedy all sin until it "is applied" in the life of a believer.

The Law of God threatens only those who refuse Christ. There is no other provision under the Law for Pardon except in Christ. Those who will suffer the "torment" of the Second death", are only those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life. How anyone can insist that God will not vindicate His justice upon those who refuse His provision in Christ, is beyond my understanding. The Gospel, the Law, and the whole Atonement motif imo, becomes completely meaningless and indeed, makes the whole story " a tale told by an idiot".

For "it is appointed for a man to die once, then comes the Judgement".
The Judgement if those outside of Christ's shed blood refuse Him now and throughout their life do not repent, then the Second Death will be their lot.
They will "die in their sins", without mercy and without any hope whatsoever! I don't like the prospect anymore than anyone else. But, its not my idea or call, but Gods.

[Guest]

Hi Bob,

Just for balance, I'll offer a different explanation of God's justice. Quoted from another thread.

It is a common doctrine in today's church that God is both merciful and just. That He is just in that all sin must be paid for or face His wrath - no sin will go unpunished. But that He is also merciful because he provided a Savior who suffered this wrath in our stead so that we could be forgiven of our sins. On the one hand God is our advocate in that He is merciful. But, on the other hand, God is our adversary, because we have all sinned and face His judgment. This is what I have been taught - that we have a God who is both Advocate and Adversary, both merciful and vengeful, both forgiving and unforgiving. Is this a correct picture of God? Is this the correct way we should understand His justice? Let me propose an alternative view.

I believe that God's justice should not be contrasted with His mercy; rather, it should be contrasted with human injustice. Since the beginning of time the world has been filled with human injustice. Think of King Herod who killed all the male babies in an attempt to kill Jesus. Think of France, before their revolution, when the rich and powerful benefited at the expense of the poor and oppressed. Think of the plight of Jews during the holocaust. And even today, there are systems of injustice throughout the world where people are oppressed, hated and disregarded due to human injustice. These things should not be! Yes, God is just - He is just because of His Love for His creation - He abhors human injustice. Think of Jesus' teaching about the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught what the world would be like if God were King. A Kingdom which would remove all sources of human injustice and replace them with God's goodness (Godly justice). In the Kingdom of God, the poor would be comforted, the weak would be made strong, the meek would inherit the earth, the humble would be exalted, and the hungry would be fed. This is our God who loves everyone. God's justice demands that everyone would be cared for, that everyone would be encouraged and built up, and that everyone would find joy and fulfillment. This is God's justice - not a contrast to His mercy, but a complement to it.

So, God is not our adversary. God is truly Love. Through both his mercy and His justice, He is our advocate. Praise God for His goodness!

Todd

[Guest]

Bob,

The story of your dreams and conversion is really awesome. So much so that I'm still taking it in....
Rick

P.S. Todd, thread participants & lurkers,
I'll have detailed replies later.
Probably very detailed (I'm really enjoying our "study")!

[Guest]

b. what we do---and don't do---cannot be undone or done after we die.

How true, Rick! But trivially true. Our deeds cannot be undone in this life either. But how does that relate to this discussion?

I have many things to reply to your statements in a previous post, Rick. I hope to get to it, soon. Please bear with me.

I think the term "justice" has been greatly twisted in meaning --- in Protestant thought. I agree with FOF that God's justice is not a characteristic which is opposite to His mercy. I believe His justice and His mercy are one and the same. For is it most just for Him to be merciful, and most merciful for Him to be just. As George MacDonald put it:

I believe that justice and mercy are simply one and the same thing; without justice to the full there can be no mercy, and without mercy to the full there can be no justice.

Here is part of George MacDonald's essay on justice, found in Unspoken Sermons III, chapter 3 "Justice":

Punishment is nowise an offset to sin. Foolish people sometimes, in a tone of self-gratulatory pity, will say, 'If I have sinned I have suffered.' Yes, verily, but what of that? What merit is there in it? Even had you laid the suffering upon yourself, what did that do to make up for the wrong? That you may have bettered by your suffering is well for you, but what atonement is there in the suffering? The notion is a false one altogether. Punishment, deserved suffering, is no equipoise to sin. It is no use laying it in the other scale. It will not move it a hair's breadth. Suffering weighs nothing at all against sin. It is not of the same kind, not under the same laws, any more than mind and matter. We say a man deserves punishment; but when we forgive and do not punish him, we do not always feel that we have done wrong; neither when we do punish him do we feel that any amends has been made for his wrongdoing. If it were an offset to wrong, then God would be bound to punish for the sake of the punishment; but he cannot be, for he forgives. Then it is not for the sake of the punishment, as a thing that in itself ought to be done, but for the sake of something else, as a means to an end, that God punishes. It is not directly for justice, else how could he show mercy, for that would involve injustice?

Primarily, God is not bound to punish sin; he is bound to destroy sin. If he were not the Maker, he might not be bound to destroy sin-I do not know; but seeing he has created creatures who have sinned, and therefore sin has, by the creating act of God, come into the world, God is, in his own righteousness, bound to destroy sin.

'But that is to have no mercy.'

You mistake. God does destroy sin; he is always destroying sin. In him I trust that he is destroying sin in me. He is always saving the sinner from his sins, and that is destroying sin. But vengeance on the sinner, the law of a tooth for a tooth, is not in the heart of God, neither in his hand. If the sinner and the sin in him, are the concrete object of the divine wrath, then indeed there can be no mercy. Then indeed there will be an end put to sin by the destruction of the sin and the sinner together. But thus would no atonement be wrought-nothing be done to make up for the wrong God has allowed to come into being by creating man. There must be an atonement, a making-up, a bringing together-an atonement which, I say, cannot be made except by the man who has sinned.

Punishment, I repeat, is not the thing required of God, but the absolute destruction of sin. What better is the world, what better is the sinner, what better is God, what better is the truth, that the sinner should suffer-continue suffering to all eternity? Would there be less sin in the universe? Would there be any making-up for sin? Would it show God justified in doing what he knew would bring sin into the world, justified in making creatures who he knew would sin? What setting-right would come of the sinner's suffering? If justice demand it, if suffering be the equivalent for sin, then the sinner must suffer, then God is bound to exact his suffering, and not pardon; and so the making of man was a tyrannical deed, a creative cruelty. But grant that the sinner has deserved to suffer, no amount of suffering is any atonement for his sin. To suffer to all eternity could not make up for one unjust word. Does that mean, then, that for an unjust word I deserve to suffer to all eternity? The unjust word is an eternally evil thing; nothing but God in my heart can cleanse me from the evil that uttered it; but does it follow that I saw the evil of what I did so perfectly, that eternal punishment for it would be just? Sorrow and confession and self-abasing love will make up for the evil word; suffering will not. For evil in the abstract, nothing can be done. It is eternally evil. But I may be saved from it by learning to loathe it, to hate it, to shrink from it with an eternal avoidance. The only vengeance worth having on sin is to make the sinner himself its executioner. Sin and punishment are in no antagonism to each other in man, any more than pardon and punishment are in God; they can perfectly co-exist. The one naturally follows the other, punishment being born of sin, because evil exists only by the life of good, and has no life of its own, being in itself death. Sin and suffering are not natural opposites; the opposite of evil is good, not suffering; the opposite of sin is not suffering, but righteousness. The path across the gulf that divides right from wrong is not the fire, but repentance. If my friend has wronged me, will it console me to see him punished? Will that be a rendering to me of my due? Will his agony be a balm to my deep wound? Should I be fit for any friendship if that were possible even in regard to my enemy? But would not the shadow of repentant grief, the light of reviving love on his countenance, heal it at once however deep? Take any of those wicked people in Dante's hell, and ask wherein is justice served by their punishment. Mind, I am not saying it is not right to punish them; I am saying that justice is not, never can be, satisfied by suffering-nay, cannot have any satisfaction in or from suffering. Human resentment, human revenge, human hate may. Such justice as Dante's keeps wickedness alive in its most terrible forms. The life of God goes forth to inform, or at least give a home to victorious evil. Is he not defeated every time that one of those lost souls defies him? All hell cannot make Vanni Fucci say 'I was wrong.' God is triumphantly defeated, I say, throughout the hell of his vengeance. Although against evil, it is but the vain and wasted cruelty of a tyrant. There is no destruction of evil thereby, but an enhancing of its horrible power in the midst of the most agonizing and disgusting tortures a divine imagination can invent. If sin must be kept alive, then hell must be kept alive; but while I regard the smallest sin as infinitely loathsome, I do not believe that any being, never good enough to see the essential ugliness of sin, could sin so as to deserve such punishment. I am not now, however, dealing with the question of the duration of punishment, but with the idea of punishment itself; and would only say in passing, that the notion that a creature born imperfect, nay, born with impulses to evil not of his own generating, and which he could not help having, a creature to whom the true face of God was never presented, and by whom it never could have been seen, should be thus condemned, is as loathsome a lie against God as could find place in heart too undeveloped to understand what justice is, and too low to look up into the face of Jesus. It never in truth found place in any heart, though in many a pettifogging brain. There is but one thing lower than deliberately to believe such a lie, and that is to worship the God of whom it is believed. The one deepest, highest, truest, fittest, most wholesome suffering must be generated in the wicked by a vision, a true sight, more or less adequate, of the hideousness of their lives, of the horror of the wrongs they have done. Physical suffering may be a factor in rousing this mental pain; but 'I would I had never been born!' must be the cry of Judas, not because of the hell-fire around him, but because he loathes the man that betrayed his friend, the world's friend. When a man loathes himself, he has begun to be saved. Punishment tends to this result. Not for its own sake, not as a make-up for sin, not for divine revenge-horrible word, not for any satisfaction to justice, can punishment exist. Punishment is for the sake of amendment and atonement. God is bound by his love to punish sin in order to deliver his creature; he is bound by his justice to destroy sin in his creation. Love is justice-is the fulfilling of the law, for God as well as for his children. This is the reason of punishment; this is why justice requires that the wicked shall not go unpunished-that they, through the eye-opening power of pain, may come to see and do justice, may be brought to desire and make all possible amends, and so become just. Such punishment concerns justice in the deepest degree. For Justice, that is God, is bound in himself to see justice done by his children-not in the mere outward act, but in their very being. He is bound in himself to make up for wrong done by his children, and he can do nothing to make up for wrong done but by bringing about the repentance of the wrong-doer. When the man says, 'I did wrong; I hate myself and my deed; I cannot endure to think that I did it!' then, I say, is atonement begun. Without that, all that the Lord did would be lost. He would have made no atonement. Repentance, restitution, confession, prayer for forgiveness, righteous dealing thereafter, is the sole possible, the only true make-up for sin. For nothing less than this did Christ die. When a man acknowledges the right he denied before; when he says to the wrong, 'I abjure, I loathe you; I see now what you are; I could not see it before because I would not; God forgive me; make me clean, or let me die!' then justice, that is God, has conquered-and not till then.

[Guest]

Quick-post before off to church.

I wrote:
b. what we do---and don't do---cannot be undone or done after we die.

Don replied:
1. How true, Rick! But trivially true. Our deeds cannot be undone in this life either. But how does that relate to this discussion?

2. I have many things to reply to your statements in a previous post, Rick. I hope to get to it, soon. Please bear with me.

I hope my system of "numbering" replies can be followed...(I do it so we can cover each point & sub-point). This post will be an easy one though. Just 2,

1.a. Sinful deeds can be forgiven in this life. Not literally undone, but forgiven by God: His 'undoing them' (in a sense of meaning) by blotting them out, taking them off our record, as far as the East is from the West! This isn't a trivial matter by any stretch of the imagination! <<<I won't budge on that...not even an inch or a milli-billi-millimeter!!!!
b. Those of us who maintain sinful deeds cannot be forgiven after this life believe that whatever sins have been done--and the consequential righteous deeds that have not been done---will be, and currently are, the criteria for God's judgment.
c. Since this discussion has generally been about God's judgment and/or His final judgment; in what way are sinful deeds "trivial"? Aren't they a primary focus in our discussion? Isn't this exactly what we have been talking about? I'm not following you (in the least)....

2. I look forward to your replies and (To all): hope to make my replies as brief as possible and more to the point. The reason being is, I don't think Todd really has any idea what I've been saying! about Romans 10:14, anyway.

Otherwise, since we are covering several things, I've wondered if we need new threads that would "target" one-topic-at-a-time (?).

Off to worship God!,
Rick