"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:41 pm

Homer wrote:If what you say is true, and the total is actually 99% cast into hell (where do you get this figure, seems someone made it up for effect), it seems to me the One who consigned them there is the winner regardless.

I have never stated that 99% of people will be cast into hell. I have stated that over 99% of people will be cast there.

I got my figure from observation. Perhaps in the circles you move, Homer, the figure is less than 99%. But consider that one third of the world's population is in Communist China where the number of disciples of Christ is probably less than .001% of the population. Consider the Muslim countries. Consider heavily populated Hindu India. We know all of these countries contain Christians ---- but how many?

Consider ancient Greece and Rome and many other places which practised Pagan religions before Christ.

Consider the total population of mankind of all ages. I think my guesstimate is conservative at best. Probably I would have been more accurate to have said "over 99.9% of all people who have ever lived will go to Gehenna."

If Satan was able to consign them there you would have an argument.

Satan did not cause them to go there:

14. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:14-15)

Nor is he able to put them there.

Surely you believe Satan is able to deceive them and heavily influence them to live evil lives. The passage you quoted from James doesn't tell the whole story. Here is another part of the picture.

Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tested day and night for ages and ages..

Post by **__id_1679** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:01 am

Hello Steve7150,

You wrote: "But destruction is completely different then eternally continually tormenting the great majority of mankind forever in some hell hole of fire and brimstone.
This is not the God of the OT , Bob. It's not in the book. And it isn't Jesus".

With all do respect to you Steve, I can't find a more potentially heretical view of the Justice of God than the one posited by Christian Universalists.
This view makes the Cross an injustice of the Atonement of Jesus our Lord, and thus nullfies the grace of God! This is pretty serious in my mind.
Christian Universalisim has the erroneous notion that "torment, or torture"
is by the "hands of an angry vindictive God" who is not satisfied with the sacrifice of His Son as the means of forgivness, reconcilliation, and Atonement. Torture or torment Steve are metaphors. The suffering is due to their regret, imo, of not repenting and refusing the grace of Christ during their lifetime. Further, the implication also seems to nullify the sufficency of Christ's Atonement by making these "obstinate people" go through the "purging purifying fires of Gehenna" in order to make them acceptable to God! This may be desireable for some. But in my understanding, this view does violence to the plain teaching of the Word
with regard to the sufficency of Christ alone for our salvation, makes the justice of God through the Cross of no effect, and in my opinion, "tramples afoot" the blood of the Covenant that bought them!
It is therefore in my opinion, "another gospel" from the pit of Hell itself based upon Satan's desire to derail and make "shipwreck" of those who are "barely escaping the flames"... May the Lord rebuke this error by correcting those holding this view. Amen!

Post by **_Rae** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:32 am

It is therefore in my opinion, "another gospel" from the pit of Hell itself

Hi Traveler! I was wondering, in what way are these guys preaching another gospel? The gospel these guys are preaching is not, "Don't worry everyone, no need to repent... you will all be saved, it's all ok." They are preaching repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus for salvation from sin (and it's consequences). The first would definitely be heretical. The second seems to be the gospel that we are commanded to preach.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:39 am

Traveler wrote:You missed the nuance as well.

I don't think so.

It is a statement and question about Gods Justice. Steve7150 argued in an earlier post that the Jews had little understanding of eternal damnation or eternal life if any. So coming from that perspective, assuming there is no afterlife, no age to come, and that this life is all we have, was God just in destroying "apparantly innocent" children, elderly, animals etc.. in His righteous wrath in the Flood?

If this were the only life there is, it seems that that would indeed be unjust. But in actuality, all will be resurrected ---- the righteous and the unrighteous. Perhaps somewhere in our subconcious, we feel as if death were the end. But perhaps God, who knows He will raise everyone again, does not regard physical death as having the significance that it has to us.
If God, however, chose to punish eternally for retribution (or as you say, to sastisfy His "justice"), that would be unjust.

Say what you will Paidion, but you have a problem with God's Justice and what it demands.

I think you have a complete misunderstanding of "justice". What follows is the dictionary meaning:

n. 1. The quality of being just; fairness. 2. The principle of moral rightness; equity. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness. 3. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law. Law. The administration and procedure of law. 4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason: The overcharged customer was angry, and with justice.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Now tell me if it is fair treatment for a "God" to send nearly everyone to an eternal torture, when He could have simply chosen not to raise them to life again.

You can play with word etymologys all you want. But remember something. There are "lurkers" watching all of us here. There are those who really "struggle" with the issue of God's justice.

Exactly. And you seem to offer them no solution.

You and I can give our opinions. But lets not mis-represent our Lord when it comes to His Justice.

EXACTLY!

Post by **__id_1679** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:57 am

Hello Rae,

You wrote: "Hi Traveler! I was wondering, in what way are these guys preaching another gospel? The gospel these guys are preaching is not, "Don't worry everyone, no need to repent... you will all be saved, it's all ok." They are preaching repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus for salvation from sin (and it's consequences)".

Preaching a gospel of repentance and faith in Jesus is not what I am contending with in Christian Universalism. It is the idea within this view that holds all will ultimately be saved, the implication that God is unjust in punishing eternally those who in this lifetime have refused the Gospel, and the necessity of those who have refused to repent, to under go the "purging fires of Gehenna" to render the ungodly "acceptable" and therefore, finally be reconciled to God. This is my "bone" of contention.
Here is where the sufficency of the Atonement of Christ alone is imo, being held in contempt as our only foundation for repentance, faith and reconcilliation with God in this life or age.

Peace to You,
In Christ,
Bob

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:34 pm

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I know of no Christian believer in the reconcilation of all to God who doesn't believe these words of Jesus. I know of none who think there's another way of becoming acceptable to God. I know of none who preach, "You can either come by the way of the cross, or you can come by the fires of Gehenna." Those who will be in Gehenna must repent and submit to Christ just as you and I have done. There is no other way.

That correction is a means to leading a person to repent. It is not an alternative means of bringing a person into righteousness. In this life, God has a number of means of leading people to repentance. That doesn't imply that these means are alternate ways of bringing a person to God, or that they imply the "insufficiency of the atonement of Christ."

Post by **_Rick_C** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:30 pm

<<< lurker

Hey Bob,

Was that you who I just heard on The Narrow Path radio?
(am listening to Steve's reply right now)....and doing further research,

Rick

Post by **_Rae** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:54 pm

So, they are preaching a different outcome of not believing the gospel... not a different gospel. Correct?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:00 pm

That is my understanding, Rachel, concerning those who proclaim the true gospel of the Kingdom as John the Baptizer, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the other apostles proclaimed it.

However, this is a different gospel from that proclaimed by those who proclaim a "gospel" which says we are saved from Hell rather than sin--- that our sins are merely forgiven, that we are still practising sinners, that it is impossible to go a single day or hour without sinning, that the sacrifice of Christ was a means of appeasing God or "satisfying His justice". Some even proclaim that we can go on sinning as still be "covered by the blood." One person I know, declared to my wife that she could go out and murder someone, and even if she died without repenting, she'd still go to heaven, because the sacrifice of Christ would avail for her ---- would cover her.

I believe those who proclaim a "gospel" which does not require their listeners to turn away from their wrongdoing, but simply pray, "God be merciful to me a sinner and save me by your grace" or "I trust in your finished work, Lord Jesus" or "I hereby accept you as my personal Saviour" do not understand the meaning of Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:18 pm

Greetings,

<<< former lurker

Paidion wrote:Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be 'tested' (in place of most translations that have 'tormented') day and night for ages and ages.

Not to go into this in detail now but this translation is questionable for several reasons. To cover it on this thread would be a bit much, imo, as we already have several sub-topics going. (I may start a new thread or threads that would be 'for' each of these sub-topics...which are many).

Paidion also wrote:John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1. I know of no Christian believer in the reconcilation of all to God who doesn't believe these words of Jesus. I know of none who think there's another way of becoming acceptable to God. I know of none who preach, "You can either come by the way of the cross, or you can come by the fires of Gehenna." Those who will be in Gehenna must repent and submit to Christ just as you and I have done. There is no other way.

2. That correction is a means to leading a person to repent. It is not an alternative means of bringing a person into righteousness. In this life, God has a number of means of leading people to repentance. That doesn't imply that these means are alternate ways of bringing a person to God, or that they imply the "insufficiency of the atonement of Christ."

For this discussion 'hades' is preferred over 'gehenna'. First, it is the word used in Revelation 20. Second, gehenna may have reference to the judgment of 70AD (which is another sub-topic that needs its own thread), imo.

1. 'Orthodox' Christians claim:
a. Salvation is obtained in this life alone---by believing the Gospel: the "good news" that Christ has merited eternal life for all who believe.
b. Those who do not believe in this life cannot come to salvation in the afterlife because,
c. The Gospel will not be preached in the afterlife as Jesus Himself said, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matt 24:12, NIV).

Some universalists (as seen on this forum anyway) do in fact believe that there are at least two ways people can be saved, which are stated as:
1. Through currently believing the Gospel: the merits of the cross of Christ on our behalf to save us and,
2. Through undergoing a post-mortem meritorious punishment that atones for the current sin of unbelief (bold, for emphasis).

2. In this life there is one repentance to belief in one Gospel. The "correction" of not believing it is to believe it.

If, as you say, the sin unbelief will be "corrected" in the afterlife and in the age to come---why wasn't this preached as integral TO the Gospel? Something this important should at least be a part of one of Jesus' teachings---but He never alluded to any such thing. Neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, nor anyone else in the NT offered post-mortem belief unto salvation as an option. I challenge you or anyone to show me where they offered it....

The Bible does NOT say, "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him---'either in this life or the next'---will not perish---'as no one WILL perish'---but have everlasting life" (bold, extra-biblical ideas forced INTO the Bible).

Don't you think John should have made at least some sort of remote "hints" in this most Primary of Gospel Verses?
Rick