what is the meaning of the constant warning " repent or perish"? What did Jesus really mean when He said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life". John 5:24 NASB
Perish does'nt sound like eternal torment to me but sounds like physical death which keeps the unbeliever from being with the Lord upon his death. But on judgement day the unbeliever is resurrected to face judgement which is the greek word "krisis" where we got our english word "crisis" from. So i think this "krisis" is faced in the lake of fire which is not a literal fire as the greek word "pur" as in purify is translated as fire.
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Perish" in the Bible sometimes means neither "eternal torment" nor "physical death" nor "total annihilation".
It sometimes refers to the original form of the person or object being destroyed so that a purer form may emerge. He is an example:
...gold which perishes [is destroyed] through fire... {1Peter 1:7}
We know that gold doesn't remain in fire forever. Nor is gold totally annihilated through fire. And it certainly doesn't die a physical death in the fire.
What happens to gold in a hot fire? It's original form (the raw ore) is destroyed. The gold melts and is purified (separated from the impurities) and the pure gold is reclaimed.
So it is with the purifying fires of Gehenna (whether literal or figurative doesn't matter. Those who undergo it will suffer). The original form of the person, self-centred, uncaring, cruel, or whatever other traits of character, will be destroyed. With the purification, the new person will come forth. In other words --- a regeneration.
Origen also used "destroy" or "perish" (Greek "apollumi") in a similar way when he wrote:
When it is said that "the last enemy shall be destroyed", it is not to be understood as meaning that his substance, which is God's creation, perishes, but that his purpose and hostile will perishes.... Therefore his destruction means not his ceasing to exist but his ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death.
It sometimes refers to the original form of the person or object being destroyed so that a purer form may emerge. He is an example:
...gold which perishes [is destroyed] through fire... {1Peter 1:7}
We know that gold doesn't remain in fire forever. Nor is gold totally annihilated through fire. And it certainly doesn't die a physical death in the fire.
What happens to gold in a hot fire? It's original form (the raw ore) is destroyed. The gold melts and is purified (separated from the impurities) and the pure gold is reclaimed.
So it is with the purifying fires of Gehenna (whether literal or figurative doesn't matter. Those who undergo it will suffer). The original form of the person, self-centred, uncaring, cruel, or whatever other traits of character, will be destroyed. With the purification, the new person will come forth. In other words --- a regeneration.
Origen also used "destroy" or "perish" (Greek "apollumi") in a similar way when he wrote:
When it is said that "the last enemy shall be destroyed", it is not to be understood as meaning that his substance, which is God's creation, perishes, but that his purpose and hostile will perishes.... Therefore his destruction means not his ceasing to exist but his ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Hey Fellas,
I am having problems accepting or understanding the view that ultimately, no one will be "lost" or eternally seperated from God.
That His judgement is more restoritve rather than retrobutive leaves me question begging. What then was the purpose of the Flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? Even the death of Christ is emptied of its full force, (as described in Is. 53 as a vicarious judgement upon man). If God "aquits the guilty" (at some future period) rather than through judicial pardon by the atoning Blood of Jesus in this life, why the urgency of Jesus statement to the Pharisees, "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"..? Death in the bible is a two sided coin. It means at the very least, a seperation. Whether it means a seperation from the body, the faith communtity, as in being "cut off", or a denial of God's Heaven, of course, has to be determined by context. IMO, eternal life implies an eternal death.
There appears to be a veiled accusation that for God to "seperate" for all eternity the godless from the godly, a charge of injustice. Do you see the problem with carrying this view to its full implication? It implies our sense of justice is greater than Gods.
..."would you discredit my justice? would you condemn Me to justify yourself?" Job 40:8 NIV
I am deeply humbled by this verse.
In Him,
Bob
I am having problems accepting or understanding the view that ultimately, no one will be "lost" or eternally seperated from God.
That His judgement is more restoritve rather than retrobutive leaves me question begging. What then was the purpose of the Flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? Even the death of Christ is emptied of its full force, (as described in Is. 53 as a vicarious judgement upon man). If God "aquits the guilty" (at some future period) rather than through judicial pardon by the atoning Blood of Jesus in this life, why the urgency of Jesus statement to the Pharisees, "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"..? Death in the bible is a two sided coin. It means at the very least, a seperation. Whether it means a seperation from the body, the faith communtity, as in being "cut off", or a denial of God's Heaven, of course, has to be determined by context. IMO, eternal life implies an eternal death.
There appears to be a veiled accusation that for God to "seperate" for all eternity the godless from the godly, a charge of injustice. Do you see the problem with carrying this view to its full implication? It implies our sense of justice is greater than Gods.
..."would you discredit my justice? would you condemn Me to justify yourself?" Job 40:8 NIV
I am deeply humbled by this verse.
In Him,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
There appears to be a veiled accusation that for God to "seperate" for all eternity the godless from the godly, a charge of injustice. Do you see the problem with carrying this view to its full implication? It implies our sense of justice is greater than Gods.
You're assuming that God stated eternal torment or separation yet we won't accept it. I don't see the bible saying that at all, i see this belief as a fear tactic originally coming out from the RCC to control the flock.
You're assuming that God stated eternal torment or separation yet we won't accept it. I don't see the bible saying that at all, i see this belief as a fear tactic originally coming out from the RCC to control the flock.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
Hi Bob,
I wrote a response to you this morning but didn't have time to complete it. I see that in the meantime others have responded and done a much better job than I could have.
However, here's what I wrote:
During the time of Jesus' incarnation, the Jews were bitter about the Roman occupation. Some, like the Sadducees (which included the temple officials) dealt with it by colluding with the Romans for their own gain. Others, like the Pharisees, felt that if Israel would just be more diligent in following the Torah and Talmud, God would send a messiah to overthrow the Romans. The Zealots harkened back to the good old days of the Maccabean revolt and believed that if they violently stood up against the Romans, God would send a messiah to lead them into battle and victory. The Essenes withdrew from society and formed communities out in the wilderness where they waited for a messiah to come.
Jesus didn't conform to the expectations of any of these factions. He urged to Israelites to take a completely different path - that of peace and blessing. Among other things, the way of Jesus included not meeting violence with violence (contrary to the Zealots), taking care of the poor and marginalized (contrary to the Sadducees), walking humbly before God (contrary to the Pharisees) and being in the world but not of it (contrary to the Essenes).
We know from history that the Jews did not heed His words but revolted against the Romans in 70 A.D. and again in 132 A.D. Both instances were disastrous for the Jews. They did not repent. Many perished.
Later in his Gospel, John explains what he means by eternal life: “This is eternal life; that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (17:3). John presents eternal life (aionios zoe) as something that happens immediately, during this life. Yet we still die. Aionios zoe might best be understood as life that comes from the Eternal One. Another way to say this is that as we enter into Christ, we partake of the life that is in Christ here and now. His life becomes our life.
BTW, in John 17:2 Jesus prays, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You even as You gave Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom You have given Him, He gives eternal life."
I became a Christian (pretty much against my will) 25 years ago. There was a process leading up to my "accepting Christ" (which I've described on my blog). Once I became a Christian, that process didn't end. Rather, it was the beginning of a whole new process of discipleship and growth which continues to this day and will continue until I die and will probably continue after that into eternity. It wasn't just a matter of, "You're saved, you're done. Next!"
I tend to think of it in this way: By the grace of God, I've been given a head start. Maybe I needed one. Those of us who come to know and follow Christ in this life are a type of first fruits. Like Israel of old we, the elect, have been blessed in order to be a blessing to the world.
If the God of Christianity had revealed Himself to be more like the Allah of Islam who at the judgement will recompense us exactly for our deeds (good and bad) then that would be one thing. But the God of Christianity has instead revealed Himself as merciful, faithful, longsuffering, compassionate and gracious. He has told us that His mercy triumphs over judgement. He has told us that He is love and then has shown us what love is by letting us kill Him. He came in the flesh to reveal Himself to us and did so not as a warlord but as a friends to sinners. He told us to love our enemies and then backed it up by loving His enemies (including you and me). Among His last words were, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." in reference to those who brutally tortured and were killing Him. He demonstrated a form of justice based on love and committment to a relationship. It was we (by whom I mean Augustine and company) who downgraded it to something more in our own image. Our sense of justice is crude and often cruel in comparison to His.
I wrote a response to you this morning but didn't have time to complete it. I see that in the meantime others have responded and done a much better job than I could have.
However, here's what I wrote:
I'm continuing to explore the implications. Frankly, they are astounding. Among other things, it means that the Good News actually is good news!Have you fully explored the implications?
Maybe it means quite literally what it says. Perish means "to die" or "to be destroyed". The whole idea of Hell is that one never dies or is destroyed but instead endures the torment forever. We sometimes forget that Jesus came to Israel as, among other things, a prophet. Like the prophets of the Old Testament He warned Israel of impending judgement if they did not repent. The judgement came in 70 A.D. and vast numbers did perish. Those that didn't physically die saw their livelihoods, their wealth, their positions of power, their agendas, etc. destroyed by the Roman fires. This is especially true of those whose lives revolved around the temple.If Universal Salvation in Christ is the Ultimate Good and goal of our Father in Heaven, what is the meaning of the constant warning " repent or perish"?
During the time of Jesus' incarnation, the Jews were bitter about the Roman occupation. Some, like the Sadducees (which included the temple officials) dealt with it by colluding with the Romans for their own gain. Others, like the Pharisees, felt that if Israel would just be more diligent in following the Torah and Talmud, God would send a messiah to overthrow the Romans. The Zealots harkened back to the good old days of the Maccabean revolt and believed that if they violently stood up against the Romans, God would send a messiah to lead them into battle and victory. The Essenes withdrew from society and formed communities out in the wilderness where they waited for a messiah to come.
Jesus didn't conform to the expectations of any of these factions. He urged to Israelites to take a completely different path - that of peace and blessing. Among other things, the way of Jesus included not meeting violence with violence (contrary to the Zealots), taking care of the poor and marginalized (contrary to the Sadducees), walking humbly before God (contrary to the Pharisees) and being in the world but not of it (contrary to the Essenes).
We know from history that the Jews did not heed His words but revolted against the Romans in 70 A.D. and again in 132 A.D. Both instances were disastrous for the Jews. They did not repent. Many perished.
What did Jesus really mean when He said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life". John 5:24 NASB
Later in his Gospel, John explains what he means by eternal life: “This is eternal life; that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (17:3). John presents eternal life (aionios zoe) as something that happens immediately, during this life. Yet we still die. Aionios zoe might best be understood as life that comes from the Eternal One. Another way to say this is that as we enter into Christ, we partake of the life that is in Christ here and now. His life becomes our life.
BTW, in John 17:2 Jesus prays, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You even as You gave Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom You have given Him, He gives eternal life."
I would strongly disagree with your statement that the death of Christ is emptied of its full force. Quite the opposite. The victory of Christ is complete. All mankind is saved because of what He has done. It is not a partial victory where many (or most) are lost. His atoning blood covers us all. While we were yet sinners, He died for us.Even the death of Christ is emptied of its full force, (as described in Is. 53 as a vicarious judgement upon man). If God "aquits the guilty" (at some future period) rather than through judicial pardon by the atoning Blood of Jesus in this life, why the urgency of Jesus statement to the Pharisees, "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"..?
I became a Christian (pretty much against my will) 25 years ago. There was a process leading up to my "accepting Christ" (which I've described on my blog). Once I became a Christian, that process didn't end. Rather, it was the beginning of a whole new process of discipleship and growth which continues to this day and will continue until I die and will probably continue after that into eternity. It wasn't just a matter of, "You're saved, you're done. Next!"
I tend to think of it in this way: By the grace of God, I've been given a head start. Maybe I needed one. Those of us who come to know and follow Christ in this life are a type of first fruits. Like Israel of old we, the elect, have been blessed in order to be a blessing to the world.
So then, you are an annihilationist?IMO, eternal life implies an eternal death.
No, it implies a desire to honor God's justice and God's character as He has revealed it. The doctrine of eternal torment mischaracterizes and distorts what God has revealed about Himself. This distortion has been perpetuated, in some cases, because the fear of Hell provides a mechanism for controlling the rank and file. That is a heinous (and perhaps blasphemous) thing because it is using God as a means of maintaining power and control over others. This is exactly what the Sadducees and Pharisees did and we know how Jesus responded to that!There appears to be a veiled accusation that for God to "seperate" for all eternity the godless from the godly, a charge of injustice. Do you see the problem with carrying this view to its full implication? It implies our sense of justice is greater than Gods.
If the God of Christianity had revealed Himself to be more like the Allah of Islam who at the judgement will recompense us exactly for our deeds (good and bad) then that would be one thing. But the God of Christianity has instead revealed Himself as merciful, faithful, longsuffering, compassionate and gracious. He has told us that His mercy triumphs over judgement. He has told us that He is love and then has shown us what love is by letting us kill Him. He came in the flesh to reveal Himself to us and did so not as a warlord but as a friends to sinners. He told us to love our enemies and then backed it up by loving His enemies (including you and me). Among His last words were, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." in reference to those who brutally tortured and were killing Him. He demonstrated a form of justice based on love and committment to a relationship. It was we (by whom I mean Augustine and company) who downgraded it to something more in our own image. Our sense of justice is crude and often cruel in comparison to His.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Father_of_five
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:37 pm
- Location: Texas USA
Lam 3:21-24
21 But this I call to mind,and therefore I have hope: 22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;his mercies never come to an end; 23 they are new every morning;great is your faithfulness. 24 The Lord is my portion, says my soul,therefore I will hope in him.
Offered without comment.
Todd
21 But this I call to mind,and therefore I have hope: 22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;his mercies never come to an end; 23 they are new every morning;great is your faithfulness. 24 The Lord is my portion, says my soul,therefore I will hope in him.
Offered without comment.
Todd
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Exactly, Bob!Traveler wrote:There appears to be a veiled accusation that for God to "seperate" for all eternity the godless from the godly, a charge of injustice. Do you see the problem with carrying this view to its full implication? It implies our sense of justice is greater than Gods.
Since that is the implication, and since that implication is false, what must our conclusion be? Is it not that God will not separate the godless and inflict upon them painful punishment for all eternity?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Greetings,
So this is where everyone's been @ this weekend, Aha! Hi Bob: Where you been? (here). I must say, you guys have posted some interesting stuff. Danny, great observations about: Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, and Zealots!
I'm wondering why the thread's topic hasn't been posted? So, in order to find an excuse to join in, I'll go ahead and do it (not to detract from the discussion tho):
Romans 14, (NASB)
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." {Isaiah 45:23}
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippians 2 (NASB)
1Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father {Isaiah 45:22(?)-25}.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 45 (NASB), picking up at verse:
18For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
"I am the LORD, and there is none else.
19"I have not spoken in secret,
In some dark land;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
'Seek Me in a waste place';
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
Declaring things that are upright.
20"Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.
21"Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame [1].
25"In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."
[1] cross-reference:
Isaiah 41:11"Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; Those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish."
italics, not in original Hebrew, v. 23
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny, et al,
Not to shift what y'all have going on (at all)....
But remember (Danny & Paidion) how we were discussing Paul's "redefining" The Shema and/or Jewish monotheism? (De 6:4 at 1 Co 8:6). I was just wondering what Paul's quoting of Isaiah 45:23...How he 'paraphrased', interpreted & applied it, etc., might have to do with this discussion? What's the 'eschatology' of his usage(s)? The 'ethics' (aspects related to judgment)? What about the surrounding verses from Isaiah 45? And/or: other?
Mainly posted for Scriptural context,
"to get into the thread",
due to insomnia,
(and/or being a Nite Ppl),
In Jesus,
Rick
So this is where everyone's been @ this weekend, Aha! Hi Bob: Where you been? (here). I must say, you guys have posted some interesting stuff. Danny, great observations about: Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, and Zealots!
I'm wondering why the thread's topic hasn't been posted? So, in order to find an excuse to join in, I'll go ahead and do it (not to detract from the discussion tho):
Romans 14, (NASB)
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." {Isaiah 45:23}
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philippians 2 (NASB)
1Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father {Isaiah 45:22(?)-25}.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 45 (NASB), picking up at verse:
18For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
"I am the LORD, and there is none else.
19"I have not spoken in secret,
In some dark land;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
'Seek Me in a waste place';
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
Declaring things that are upright.
20"Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.
21"Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame [1].
25"In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."
[1] cross-reference:
Isaiah 41:11"Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; Those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish."
italics, not in original Hebrew, v. 23
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny, et al,
Not to shift what y'all have going on (at all)....
But remember (Danny & Paidion) how we were discussing Paul's "redefining" The Shema and/or Jewish monotheism? (De 6:4 at 1 Co 8:6). I was just wondering what Paul's quoting of Isaiah 45:23...How he 'paraphrased', interpreted & applied it, etc., might have to do with this discussion? What's the 'eschatology' of his usage(s)? The 'ethics' (aspects related to judgment)? What about the surrounding verses from Isaiah 45? And/or: other?
Mainly posted for Scriptural context,
"to get into the thread",
due to insomnia,
(and/or being a Nite Ppl),
In Jesus,
Rick
Last edited by _Rich on Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
-
_Father_of_five
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:37 pm
- Location: Texas USA
Rick,
Thanks for posting those passages. The question remains - how are we to understand them? Traditional teaching says that, for the unjust, they are forced into submission just prior to being cast into the lake of fire. I find that difficult to believe simply because we are told that:
...Every tongue shall give praise to God.
...every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
...every tongue will swear allegiance.
...They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength'
How could God find any glory in a forced submission? How could one forced truly praise God, confess Jesus as Lord, swear allegiance, and say that righteousness and strength come from the Lord?
It seems to me that these verses tell of a time when all of mankind has been returned back to their Creator with praise and thanksgiving.
Todd
Thanks for posting those passages. The question remains - how are we to understand them? Traditional teaching says that, for the unjust, they are forced into submission just prior to being cast into the lake of fire. I find that difficult to believe simply because we are told that:
...Every tongue shall give praise to God.
...every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
...every tongue will swear allegiance.
...They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength'
How could God find any glory in a forced submission? How could one forced truly praise God, confess Jesus as Lord, swear allegiance, and say that righteousness and strength come from the Lord?
It seems to me that these verses tell of a time when all of mankind has been returned back to their Creator with praise and thanksgiving.
Todd
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Todd-
i dont think the confessions will be forced. they will be quite voluntary and sincere, but a tad too late.
TK
i dont think the confessions will be forced. they will be quite voluntary and sincere, but a tad too late.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)