True Forgiveness

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_Paidion
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True Forgiveness

Post by _Paidion » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:31 am

It seems that the subject of forgiveness discussed on the "God is green" thead has split the thread in two. So I thought any continuation of this subject would best be discussed in a new thread.

Rachel
According to Jesus, I would have to forgive them (i.e. - restore the relationship just as it was before) every time they said they repented (since I don't really know if they really did, and Jesus just said to forgive them if they said they repented... 70x7 times).
What then shall we do with the words of Jesus? Get around them by weakening the meaning of “forgive”?

Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him." Luke 17:3,4

I think the basic teaching of Jesus is found in verse 3: “if he repents, forgive him.” We do not know for sure whether he repents, even if he says so. But I think in verse 4, Jesus is teaching that the one who has done wrong says that he repents, we should normally accept his word for it. This would be in keeping with Paul’s words about love in I Corinthians 13 --- that love “believes all” and “expects all” and “endures all”. Of course, “believes all” does not imply that a disciple is gullible. Rather, it is probably a hyperbole, used to indicate that one who loves tends to believe others rather than be suspicious of them. I suspect that “seven times” is probably also hyperbolic as well as the “seventy times seven” in another passage. Jesus may be saying that if you truly forgive someone who has repented, but they stumble again, you shouldn’t assume that they are hopeless, and hold them at hands length, and with suspicion from that time forth.
So let's say that the person that molested the daughter says they repent. We are required by Jesus to forgive them (even if they just say they repent) or our Father will not forgive us. From your definition, we have to restore the relationship as it was before, which means allowing the daughter to be alone with the person. Then let's say they do it again (which, according to Jesus' example is possible even after they have repented). Then they say they repent. In order to obey Jesus, we must forgive them, which would mean restoring the relationship to exactly what it was before... thus we must let the daughter stay with them again....... then the 200th time around (which still hasn't even reached the 70x7 number) and the same thing happens. The guy still says he repents, and we are still required to forgive and completely restore the relationship.

Is this your understanding of what Jesus meant?
No.

You may want to consider how our Father forgives. Does He not forgive in such a way that it’s just as if we never sinned? Indeed that’s how some define “justification” ---- “just as if I’d never sinned”. Does God not restore our relationship exactly as it was before? Or does He treat us as if we might commit the offense again? Does He arrange circumstances to protect others from us?

However if our Father does exercise true forgiveness toward us, and restores our relationship completely, if He regards us as if we had never sinned, then should not our forgiveness toward others be of a similar nature?
…so that we may be like God …children of our Father who is in heaven (Matthew 5:45)
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Post by _Rae » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:41 pm

It seems that the subject of forgiveness discussed on the "God is green" thead has split the thread in two. So I thought any continuation of this subject would best be discussed in a new thread.
Great idea! I was planning on doing the same thing, just hadn't gotten around to it yet.

---------------------------------

I completely agree with you in the sense of forgiving someone just as God has forgiven us. I'm sorry if I come across as disagreeing. My questions have more to do with what exactly "restoring the relationship" dictates.

For example, if my best friend murdered my child, and then repented many years later, I would be required to forgive them - count it as if they have not done it. But does that mean that in order to truly forgive them we have to be best friends again? What if the murder didn't take place and we would've drifted apart anyway... no longer would have been best friends?

Situation 1: You have a best friend, you do everything together, etc. Over the years, you move/don't have much in common anymore/etc... Ten years later, maybe you still keep in touch with Christmas letters, but you are no longer best friends.

Situation 2: You have a best friend, you do everything together, etc. They murder your child. The relationship is broken. Ten years later they come to you and truly repent.

The question is... do you have to be best friends again for the relationship to be completely restored? If the parent wouldn't have been best friends with the person 10 years down the road in situation 1, why would they have to be in situation 2?

------------

Again, with the child molestation example... maybe after the first incident the person realizes "oh, maybe I shouldn't ever leave my children with any man alone other than my husband." Then the molester comes and repents. By your definition of "restoring the relationship" the mother would be required to let the child stay with them again -- things have to be EXACTLY as they were before the incident.

I completely agree that she must forgive the person from her heart, and not hold it against them, I just don't see how forgiveness REQUIRES things to look exactly as they did before the act was done that needed repentance.



Am I making any sense? I sort of feel like I am not communicating effectively.
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Post by _TK » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:15 pm

does the teaching of jesus apply only to "brothers", i.e fellow believers?

TK
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Post by _Paidion » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:24 pm

Rachel:
My questions have more to do with what exactly "restoring the relationship" dictates.

For example, if my best friend murdered my child, and then repented many years later, I would be required to forgive them - count it as if they have not done it. But does that mean that in order to truly forgive them we have to be best friends again? What if the murder didn't take place and we would've drifted apart anyway... no longer would have been best friends? [Rachel gives examples]
A good observation, Rachel! Obviously, a relationship does not remain exactly the same, even if no offense takes place.

Thus a rewording of the definition to accomodate this fact, might be:
"If person A forgives B, then there is a restoration of the relationship to the same degree as it would have been, had the offence not taken place."
Again, with the child molestation example... maybe after the first incident the person realizes "oh, maybe I shouldn't ever leave my children with any man alone other than my husband." Then the molester comes and repents. By your definition of "restoring the relationship" the mother would be required to let the child stay with them again -- things have to be EXACTLY as they were before the incident.
Apparently, my definition was too explicit. However, I think the mother's attitude toward the one who molested her child, if he has truly repented [has had a change of mind and heart about his actions to the extent that he now abhors them], and if she has truly forgiven him, will be no different from what it would have been had the incident not taken place.
I completely agree that she must forgive the person from her heart, and not hold it against them, I just don't see how forgiveness REQUIRES things to look exactly as they did before the act was done that needed repentance.
I regret that I used the word "exactly". You have succesfully pointed out that relationships change, whether or not there is an offence, and thus truly forgiving someone does not imply that exactly the same relationship
must be restored.

Thanks again, for intellectually forcing me to create a definition which has a broader application.

TK:
does the teaching of jesus apply only to "brothers", i.e fellow believers?
It seems that the Jewish usage of "brothers" means any fellow Jews. You may recall that when Peter gave that great message in which he said, "God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified," they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Now these people were still non-disciples. They had not yet repented. They had not yet been baptized. Yet they addressed Peter and the other apostles as "Brothers". Obviously they didn't mean "fellow believers" since they, themselves, were not yet "believers" in the Christian sense of the word.
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Post by _Homer » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:02 am

Paidion,

Your reference to Paul's conversion and his acceptance by the Church was interesting but after considering it, I am unconvinced of its applicability to the case of a mother forgiving the man who raped or molested her child.

It took the appearance of The Lord in a vision to convince Ananias that he should accept Paul, and Ananias, it appears from his comment to Paul in Acts 9:17, knew of Paul's experience on the road to Damascus prior to his seeing Paul. Then Paul's actions immediately confirmed his conversion by proclaiming in the synagogues that Jesus was the Son of God. Thus Paul put his life on the line to back up his conversion story, for we find the Jews quickly plotted his death. How is this comparible to the hypothetical story of the mother and the man who assaulted her child?

Forgiveness and trust are two different things. Consider the statement about Jesus, John 2:23-25: (New American Standard Bible)


23. Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing.

24. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,

25. and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.


Here we have Jesus withholding trust, at least in some degree, from people who believed in Him.

And how about this parable, which shows there are degrees of trust from God toward us:

Matthew 25:14-30 (New King James Version)


14. “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16. Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20. “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21. His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22. He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23. His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24. “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26. “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27. So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29. ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


So here we see clearly illustrated that trust is earned, and that there are degrees of trust.

That's all I havetime for, getting late. I think we need to have a bit of discussion on the biblical meaning of trust. Perhaps the meaning of pisteuo in the scriptures would be a good place to start.
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Post by _Murf » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:28 pm

Even if you truly repent you can still do the exact sin again. I don't think we have to worry about the amount of relationship repair this side of Heaven.

tim
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:59 pm

Homer:
Forgiveness and trust are two different things. Consider the statement about Jesus, John 2:23-25: (New American Standard Bible)

23. Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing.

24. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,

25. and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.


Here we have Jesus withholding trust, at least in some degree, from people who believed in Him.
Forgiveness and trust have two different meanings. But that does not imply the following sentence is false:

"If A forgives B, then A trusts B."

In the examples you gave, Jesus did not entrust Himself to some of the people who "believed" in Him ---- TRUE. Most people would "believe" in someone who was working miracles.

However, just because they "believed" in Him, does not imply that Jesus had forgiven them.
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Post by _Homer » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:36 am

Paidion,

I'm still working through this one. You wrote:
Forgiveness and trust have two different meanings. But that does not imply the following sentence is false:

"If A forgives B, then A trusts B."
But can you prove that "If A truly forgives B, A must completely trust B"?

It would seem that in the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35, after the King forgave the debt of the servant, the King should have restored the servant to his former position of trust but this does not seem to have been in Jesus mind. It would have made the parable an even more astonishing story if so.

Also it would seem that a husband could never divorce a wife for adultery if she said she repented, no matter how many times this occured.

I believe that forgiveness means releasing the other person from an obligation if they are unable to make restitution and treating the other person in a loving manner. Trust is another matter, being the other side of the faith coin, so to speak. Trust requires that one have confidence that a person will do as they should.

I know someone who, I am convinced, truly loves Jesus. He has a problem with alcohol, and has a history of falling off the wagon and repenting with bitter tears. "He who has been forgiven much, loves much." I'm sure he loves Jesus more than many Christians. Yet do I trust him with alcohol? I have little confidence that he could resist if he was put in a tempting situation.

We are told to "flee from temptation". We know where we are weak, or we ought to. How then could a mother place her daughter in the care of someone who had molested her child, no matter how much he said he had repented? Trust, or faith in another, confidence they will do the right thing in face of a temptation where they have a demonstrated past history of failure would seem to be not only unwise but wrong. If we are to flee temptation, why would we want to tempt a weak brother to show our forgiveness of him?

I look forward to hearing from you; this is a most important matter for I believe we must truly forgive if we are to be forgiven. We need to know just what it means.
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Post by _MLH » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:43 pm

We are told to pray for our enemies..That is the best we can do for others.
I believe I can forgive with God's help, but I dont need to be restored
as to spend quality time with the person.

Love your enemies
Do good unto them
Pray for them.

WOW, to me personally thats alot.
Prayer is powerful for us and our enemy
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:16 pm

I have to go away for a couple of days.
I'll get back to you, Homer, on this very important question when I return
May God bless you, and grant us all His enabling grace!
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