The word [Jesus?] was God

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Post by _Rick_C » Fri May 18, 2007 8:32 pm

Lots could be said about translation; its principles and the ultimate choices translators have to make.
Derek wrote:There are dozens without the definite article. So try putting "a" in front of "God" in all of these. It turns into some strange stuff.
It would be equally odd if we "said" some of the definate articles that are there in the Greek text; the definate article(s) that the Bible authors both spoke and wrote. We just don't say, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God...", etc.

It goes back to the choices translators are forced to make....
Emmet wrote:A uniform rule does not apply here. In other circumstances, lack of the article in Greek is properly rendered in English with an indefinite article: e.g., Acts 12:22; 17:23; 28:6.

The issue in John 1:1 is not that an indefinite article is required for proper translation, but that it is a possible option.
In a B-Greek thread on this verse I saw where hO QEOS was used by Plato and is usually tranlated as simply "God" (same as in our NTs). Of course, this is literally "the god." Then it was questioned as to which god was Plato referring to? "Probably Apollos," was the answer to point out that hO QEOS doesn't have to specifically name a particular deity in order for the readers to know which one is being referred to. Apollos in the case sited was most likely which divinity Plato meant.

I will answer your earlier replies later, Emmet....

I just used that very convenient edit feature

In Luke 4:8a TON QEON is used by Jesus when answering the devil: "You shall worship the Lord your God" Gk, KURION TON QEON. Here QEON is said by commentators to be in the accusative, masculine, singlular (of QEOS).

The text Jesus quotes, Deu. 6:13, is literally in Hebrew "You shall worship Yahweh your Elohim". The LXX (Septuagint) has the same Greek wording Luke uses (KURION TON QEON).

This stuff gets complicated since Jesus didn't speak Greek that we know of. Even if he did, he would usually have spoken in Aramaic when addressing Jewish audiences. Did he speak in Hebrew to the devil? Possibly so, as the Hebrew texts were often read in the synagogues (though it was a dead language by NT times). In any event, the Gospel writers translated Jesus' Aramaic into Greek which we translate into English; noting that Matthew also transliterates Jesus' Aramaic words and then interprets (translates) them in Greek, see Matt 27:46.

The LXX translators used TON QEON to tranlslate Elohim which can be plural or singular.

I think stuff like: Was it "You shall worship Yahweh [the Hebrew "Lord" who is] your [singularly assigned-to-Israel-deity, who is from the: plural] Elohim"....

I need some cawfee
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Fri May 18, 2007 9:23 pm

Hello, Rick,

Thank you for your response.
kaufmannphillips: A uniform rule does not apply here. In other circumstances, lack of the article in Greek is properly rendered in English with an indefinite article: e.g., Acts 12:22; 17:23; 28:6.

The issue in John 1:1 is not that an indefinite article is required for proper translation, but that it is a possible option.



Rick_C: In a B-Greek thread on this verse I saw where hO QEOS was used by Plato and is usually tranlated as simply "God" (same as in our NTs). Of course, this is literally "the god." Then it was questioned as to which god was Plato referring to? "Probably Apollos," was the answer to point out that hO QEOS doesn't have to specifically name a particular deity in order for the readers to know which one is being referred to. Apollos in the case sited was most likely which divinity Plato meant.
Were your comments intended to respond directly to the material you quoted from my post?

My comments on "indefinite" status were grammatical. In English, we have two articles: the definite ("the"); and the indefinite ("a" or "an"). Greek only has a definite article - no indefinite article. Furthermore, the absence of a definite article (= "the") in a Greek construct does not necessarily mean that an indefinite article (= "a"/"an") is called for in translation.

But to add to the discussion on "language" for now:
I went to Perseus for word-studies last night and found TON QEON (John 1:1, and the Word was with "[the] God". TON QEON is consistently in the masculine, genitive, plural, in Plato and other classical writers. It is translated as "the gods" over & over again....
I think your work here stumbled a bit, Rick, though in understandable ways.

The first mention of God in the verse utilizes ton theon, but I think you used the wrong "o" (so to speak) in your search. If you used an omega, you would have genitive plural (= "the gods"). But the correct vowel would be omicron, yielding an accusative singular.

The second mention of God (which is the one you really appear to be interested in) is nominative singular and lacking an article; the noun is theos, and there is no ton of any sort.


Shlamaa,
Emmet
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Post by _Rick_C » Fri May 18, 2007 10:45 pm

Emmet wrote:Were your comments intended to respond directly to the material you quoted from my post?
I was "indirectly" (generally) posting about the definate article "the".
My comments on "indefinite" status were grammatical. In English, we have two articles: the definite ("the"); and the indefinite ("a" or "an"). Greek only has a definite article - no indefinite article. Furthermore, the absence of a definite article (= "the") in a Greek construct does not necessarily mean that an indefinite article (= "a"/"an") is called for in translation.
I'm self-taught in Greek & from what tiny bits I seem to know: Agreed.
I think your work here stumbled a bit, Rick, though in understandable ways.

The first mention of God in the verse utilizes ton theon, but I think you used the wrong "o" (so to speak) in your search. If you used an omega, you would have genitive plural (= "the gods"). But the correct vowel would be omicron, yielding an accusative singular.
I may have misread Perseus, if indeed, Plato wrote TWN QEWN! Thanks. I need to get Perseus's Greek font. Till now I've been reading the transliteration they have (and my font size has, perhaps, been too small?).

To "post in Greek" I'm using:
B-Greek:
Transliterating Greek in messages sent to B-Greek

The second mention of God (which is the one you really appear to be interested in) is nominative singular and lacking an article; the noun is theos, and there is no ton of any sort.

My example from B-Greek was about hO QEOS (in my general aside about "the" (hO). I haven't really commented on KAI QEOS hHN hO LOGOS. For now, I'm looking into "and God was the Word"....

I'm going to go see if I can get Perseus Greek font.....
P.S. Back: Yep, in Greek it is "tone theh-own" (TWN QEWN)....tyvm, Emmet! I misread the Greek/English transliteration but saw it in Greek, lol

Nothing like making yerself a complete moron on the internet: duh!
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Post by _Paidion » Fri May 18, 2007 11:21 pm

They say that since there's no definite article there, then they can put "a" before God. However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible.
Where are you getting this, Derek? It's simply not true, and it is not found in the James White article.

It's the word order: "God was the Logos" that indicates that "God" should not have an indefinite article.

An analogous passage is "God is Love" in which the word order is "Love is God". This order is used to indicate "love" is the kind of thing that God is.

Likewise "God" (or "Deity) is the kind of thing that the Logos was.
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Post by _Derek » Sat May 19, 2007 12:05 am

Where are you getting this, Derek? It's simply not true, and it is not found in the James White article.
"They" (in my quote) are the Jehovah's Witnesses. This is what they say. I agree with you that it's not true!
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Post by _Rick_C » Sat May 19, 2007 12:57 am

Emmet,
Quote:
Rick_C: In the late and early to mid second centuries the newly re-organized Judaism condemned heretics for believing in "two powers in heaven." Some scholars say that among these these heretics were, in fact, the very first Christians who held to these ancient Hebrew beliefs you are posting about, Emmet!


Emmet: "Two powers" traditions seem potentially relevant to the study of the NT and the early church. I will assert, though, that they are not so relevant to understanding the meaning of Genesis 1. Genesis was not written for a first-/second-century audience, and sensitive interpretation of a document correlates to its intended audience.
Afaik, it hasn't been proven beyond all doubt that Christians were among the "minim" (heretics within Judaism) that believed in "two powers (in heaven)". From what I understand it is generally accepted that some of them were Gnostic. Though there are commonalities of belief between the first Christians and the Gnostics, as contrasted over against orthodox Judaism; not all scholars are convinced the Christians were among the "two powers" believers. (Btw, I have a lot of study yet to do in this).

On Genesis and "two powers" traditions:
Scholars are presenting theories that the old belief in a plurality of deities (polytheism) actually survived till the NT era. These scholars tend to see Elohim in Genesis as "the gods". But you are correct in that Genesis' use of Elohim doesn't necessarily imply two, or any other number of, deities.
You also wrote:I also hedge at lumping early Christians together with ancient Hebrew beliefs. Early Christianity developed out of late Second Temple Judaism, which is a different animal from both Israelite religion and the early Jewish religion of the post-exilic/pre-Hellenistic era.
Early Christianity had origins in Enochian and Essene Judaisms, imo. The scholars I've been reading see Christianity (read: "Jesus and the original Christians") as developing out of First Temple Judaism: from the traditions that the Enochians and Essenes upheld. Put another way, both the Enochians and the Essenes wanted to see the First Temple "restored" and looked forward to the Day it would happen. They believed themselves to be the "true priests", the "sons of light", "the elect of the new covenant", and so on: There are very many thematic "parallels" between the Intertestamental literature (Dead Sea Scrolls, Enochian literature, etc.) and the NT.
You continued and wrote:So I would affirm the relevance of "two powers" traditions to exploring Christian origins, but I would distinguish them from ancient Hebrew beliefs (though they may be an outgrowth of earlier beliefs), and I would balk at interpreting Genesis through their lens.
I agree the consensus is: It is "insane" to think that anything other than the "monotheism" we are familiar with existed in the First Century. But there is evidence for a "monotheism" during the period that incorporated (embraced) the worship of two divinities.

This evidence poiints toward the possibility that: The ancient Hebrews believed in two divinities: El/Elyon and Yahweh. Of course, they believed in Baal and Molech at times also! and The Prophets railed against this! But in the Bible you never see any condemnation of the worship of El/Elyon (the Most High God)...the God of Melchizedek, from the old times of Abraham and the Patriarchs. Ne'er a word is said against El!

"The Son of God Scroll" (among the Dead Sea Scrolls) almost seems to be quoted in Luke 1:32: "He shall be called...the Son of the Most High God." Here is a possible "two powers" motif: El (the Most High God) and Yahweh/Jesus (His Son).
Quote:
Rick_C: The ancient Hebrews did see the angels as gods, "sons of God" and "the hosts of heaven". I believe this "old school" of Hebrew thought continued up to the first century -- with Jesus and the very first Christians --- and beyond. It wasn't until the Church became predominantly Gentile, and this didn't take very long, that these ancient Hebrew beliefs either dwindled away or were eventually completely stamped out.

Emmet:I would take a more nuanced approach. Although I am not expert in this department, I would imagine the "old school" view to have attenuated some time before the first-century. During the prophetic era, a stronger monotheistic vector appears to have emerged, and the congregation of "gods" concept likely fell out of favor. In the Persian period, however, it seems that Zoroastrian influence may have encouraged the development of speculative angelology and theoretical constructs of multiple powers in heaven; furthermore, the latter may have interfaced with conceptualizations drawn from Hellenistic philosophy. So the post-exilic concepts of hosts or powers are somewhat removed from the ancient congregation of gods, due to the emergence of monotheistic emphasis, and the subsequent (or parallel, depending upon one's paradigm of dating) wash of Persian and Greek thought.
This is a lot to respond to...(I will have to pick & choose)....

First, the popularly held notion that religions are essentially syncretistic, borrowing from one religion here, and again, from another religion there, doesn't undermine the inherent orthodoxy of any given religion of any certain time, imo. This kind of postmodern concept would have us all wonder if our beliefs are "only on loan" from someplace or someone else! And beside that: Postmodernism is DEAD! imnsho, haha. In some of the Early Fathers of the Church and scholars I've been reading lately; the theory is in the reverse. Namely, that it was the pagans who "borrowed" from the Hebrews: They got monotheism from the Jews! (as the theory goes).

Yes: During the prophetic era (and/or with the "reforms" of Josiah) what we now know as "monotheism" emerged. That is to say, if it didn't exist before then (Orthodox Jews say it has always existed and been the same). But with the merging of El and Yahweh into a single deity...I'm undecided on this, maybe about 80% convinced it was what actually happened.

And yes: In the Hellenistic period "Greek concepts" were incorpated into religious -- and even Jewish -- thought. But this doesn't make the Jews of the time less Jewish. Philo of Alexandria was an expert in Greek philosophy but remained orthodox, imo. The same with how John (in John 1:1,2) uses concepts readily known to his audience. The use of familiar and contemporaneous language doesn't indicate a sell out to another religion, agreed?

In John 10:34 Jesus quotes Psalms 82:6. This Psalm has several interpretations, quite differing translations, and is probably the most controversial of them all. I can't go into it now but think Jesus could have, and possibly did, hold to the old "congregation of the gods (the elohim)" belief. If He did, the Old (Two Powers?) School survived intact till the First Century.....

I'm not "totally sold" on what I've been posting and...have to go to bed now.
Thanks,
Rick
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Post by _Paidion » Tue May 22, 2007 12:34 am

They say that since there's no definite article there, then they can put "a" before God. However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible.
"They" (in my quote) are the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I realized that "They" (in your quote) referred to the JWs. But your second sentence, "However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible," does not appear to be part of what "They" say, but an affirmation on your part. When I stated that it was simply untrue, that is the sentence which I meant.
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Tue May 22, 2007 8:07 am

Hello, Rick,

Thank you for your response.
kaufmannphillips: I also hedge at lumping early Christians together with ancient Hebrew beliefs. Early Christianity developed out of late Second Temple Judaism, which is a different animal from both Israelite religion and the early Jewish religion of the post-exilic/pre-Hellenistic era.

Rick_C: Early Christianity had origins in Enochian and Essene Judaisms, imo. The scholars I've been reading see Christianity (read: "Jesus and the original Christians") as developing out of First Temple Judaism: from the traditions that the Enochians and Essenes upheld. Put another way, both the Enochians and the Essenes wanted to see the First Temple "restored" and looked forward to the Day it would happen. They believed themselves to be the "true priests", the "sons of light", "the elect of the new covenant", and so on: There are very many thematic "parallels" between the Intertestamental literature (Dead Sea Scrolls, Enochian literature, etc.) and the NT.
(aleph) "Second Temple Judaism" is conventional scholastic nomenclature for post-exilic/prerabbinic Judaism. Even if the Enochian and Essene traditions looked to a restoration of the temple cultus, they were participants in the Second Temple-era spectrum of Judaisms.

As for the correlation of these movements with First Temple Judaism - one may invoke the example of some "bible Christians" who imagine themselves to be part of "the New Testament church," when (despite their best intentions and deepest wishes) they are part-and-parcel of contemporary American Christianity; although they derive inspiration from the past model, many of these Christians' basic assumptions and patterns of thought are established by intervening influences, alien to the past tradition. Even those who seek to reclaim the past do not fully escape their present.

(beth) It would appear that earliest Christianity held the Second Temple in some regard. The disciples are described in Acts as frequenting its precincts and sanctioning its sacrificial cultus. Although early Christianity has conflict with some individuals holding religious authority, and probably would like to see the temple leadership embrace Jesus of Nazareth, it does not appear to make constitutional reform of the cultus a practical or theoretical priority.

(gymel) Although Christianity may have drawn from Enochian and Essene traditions, it would be easy to overestimate their influence; the character of each is notably distinct from early Christianity (at least, in its "orthodox" tradition). Furthermore, it should not be assumed that because early Christianity and a movement have a feature in common, that there is a direct relationship between the two; both may be drawing upon a common backlog of Jewish tradition.

(daleth) This is not to deny that "[t]here are very many thematic "parallels" between the Intertestamental literature (Dead Sea Scrolls, Enochian literature, etc.) and the NT." The intertestamental literature is a rich resource for gaining a broader perspective on the background and context for early Christianity, and I heartily encourage its study.

But I also recommend a cautious engagement of its evidence: we have only remnants of the spectrum remaining to us - fragments that offer limited windows into ideas of the period. It can be challenging to gauge the extent to which the glimpses afforded by these apertures are indicative.

kaufmannphillips: So I would affirm the relevance of "two powers" traditions to exploring Christian origins, but I would distinguish them from ancient Hebrew beliefs (though they may be an outgrowth of earlier beliefs), and I would balk at interpreting Genesis through their lens.

Rick_C: I agree the consensus is: It is "insane" to think that anything other than the "monotheism" we are familiar with existed in the First Century. But there is evidence for a "monotheism" during the period that incorporated (embraced) the worship of two divinities.

This evidence poiints toward the possibility that: The ancient Hebrews believed in two divinities: El/Elyon and Yahweh. Of course, they believed in Baal and Molech at times also! and The Prophets railed against this! But in the Bible you never see any condemnation of the worship of El/Elyon (the Most High God)...the God of Melchizedek, from the old times of Abraham and the Patriarchs. Ne'er a word is said against El!
I will complain against speculating about ancient Hebrew beliefs on the basis of first-century phenomena. The two religions (ancient Israelite religion and late Second Temple Judaism) are far removed from each other. One might as well try to deduce what Martin Luther thought from the Pentecostal movement, or what Jesus thought from the writings of Augustine.

The later movement's holding a certain posture does not necessarily indicate that such a posture was inherited from earlier tradition. Speculation on ancient Israelite religion should be drawn from contemporaneous sources, insofar as possible.

"The Son of God Scroll" (among the Dead Sea Scrolls) almost seems to be quoted in Luke 1:32: "He shall be called...the Son of the Most High God." Here is a possible "two powers" motif: El (the Most High God) and Yahweh/Jesus (His Son).
Regrettably, the fragmentary nature of the scroll in question (4Q246) does not give us as much context as would be preferable. But we may recognize that the epithets it assigns to this figure - viz., "son of God" and "son of the Most High" - are simple messianic titles, in light of the Hebrew bible (q.v., 2 Samuel 7:12-16; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; 28:4-8; Psalm 2:7). Such is the Davidic analogue to the divine sonship claimed by various Ancient Near Eastern/Mediterranean rulers. There is no need to see this as a "two powers" theology.

First, the popularly held notion that religions are essentially syncretistic, borrowing from one religion here, and again, from another religion there, doesn't undermine the inherent orthodoxy of any given religion of any certain time, imo. This kind of postmodern concept would have us all wonder if our beliefs are "only on loan" from someplace or someone else! And beside that: Postmodernism is DEAD! imnsho, haha. In some of the Early Fathers of the Church and scholars I've been reading lately; the theory is in the reverse. Namely, that it was the pagans who "borrowed" from the Hebrews: They got monotheism from the Jews! (as the theory goes).
(aleph) My concern here is not for "orthodoxy," but for historical perspective.

(beth) Attentiveness to syncretism is not postmodern in origin.

(gymel) The early church fathers can hardly be considered to hold an objective opinion on this matter, and the same could be said for certain scholars.

(daleth) Influence often flows both ways, but it is hardly tenable that Zoroastrianism or Hellenism derived the more florid aspects of their cosmogonies from the Jews. What we find in the Hebrew bible and other Jewish literature is that, prior to the exile, the subsidiary spiritual beings are anonymous and the inner politics of heaven are largely opaque. After the exile, there is greater elaboration of the subsidiaries' persons and of metaphysical matters (ranging from protocol to (so to speak) space opera). Considering the vectors of Persian and Greek religion/philosophy, this does not suggest that the flow of influence in these departments favored the Jewish side of the equation.

And yes: In the Hellenistic period "Greek concepts" were incorpated into religious -- and even Jewish -- thought. But this doesn't make the Jews of the time less Jewish. Philo of Alexandria was an expert in Greek philosophy but remained orthodox, imo. The same with how John (in John 1:1,2) uses concepts readily known to his audience. The use of familiar and contemporaneous language doesn't indicate a sell out to another religion, agreed?
Here we step into sensitive territory. The usage of borrowed imagery and conceptualization may be, in its first intent and application, simply a device. But translation commonly shades into transmogrification, despite even the best intentions.

It would be overly optimistic to imagine the entire exercise as merely translating Jewish ideas into convenient language, without infusing concepts and methodology that are alien to Jewish precedent. What is more, such infusion often transpires because the interpreter is beholden to both systems of thought - the prior tradition and the contemporary worldview - and wants to satisfy each.


Shlamaa,
Emmet
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Post by _Derek » Tue May 22, 2007 3:29 pm

Paidion wrote:
They say that since there's no definite article there, then they can put "a" before God. However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible.
"They" (in my quote) are the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I realized that "They" (in your quote) referred to the JWs. But your second sentence, "However, there is aparently a greek grammer rule that makes the use of the definite article after "was" impossible," does not appear to be part of what "They" say, but an affirmation on your part. When I stated that it was simply untrue, that is the sentence which I meant.
Oh...I see. I got it from Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults. Here's the quote.

"The subject of the sentence is Word (Logos), the verb was. There can be no direct object following "was" since according to grammatical usage intransitive verbs take no object but take instead predicate nominatives, which refer back to the subject - in this case, Word (Logos). In fact, the late New Testament Greek scholar Dr. C.E. Colwell formulated a rule that clearly states that a definite predicate nominative (in this case theos-God) never takes an article when it precedes the verb (was), as we find in John 1:1." (emphasis his).


Please note that I know very little about Greek. That's why I said "apparently', and I didn't mean after every occurence of the word "was", but the occurence in John 1:1.

Hopefully that clears up what I was trying to say. :oops:

God bless,
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Post by _Paidion » Thu May 24, 2007 12:23 am

Derek, notice Colwell's "rule" states that a predicate nominative never takes the defininite article when it precedes the verb.

But this, in my experience, is not the true rule. I find that that when a predicate nominative precedes the copula verb, it always describes a quality of the subject nominative. This is done in several places other than John 1:1, for example "God is love". In Greek, the word for "love" precedes the verb. This also happens in "Your word is truth". The word for "truth" in Greek precedes the verb "is".

And so in John 1:1, God (or "divinity") is the quality that the Logos was.
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