Why did Jesus stop reading?

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Homer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:28 pm

Hi matt,

It would seem that Uzzah was disobedient to God's positive law regarding the handling of the ark no more than the others helping him. Then Uzzah meant well when he touched the ark in an attempt to stabilize it. This brings up the question of why God's grace was withdrawn from Uzzah and not the others, and what a strange and seemingly coincidental fate for Uzzah that he apparently was immediately struck dead. This would seem to imply that without God's grace bad things happen rather quickly and also that Hitler was for years covered by God's grace. I'm having difficulty seeing the theory as a reasonable one.

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by mattrose » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:59 pm

First off, I wouldn't apply the 'withdrawl' category to the Uzzah incident. I think it was important for God to demonstrate the seriousness of worship to the nation of Israel as a whole. And the earthly life of one man was not too great a price to pay. I would assume that Uzzah is in God's presence today, so it's not necessarily an issue of judgment at all.

Second, I think God did withdraw his grace from Hitler early on in Hitler's life (as Hitler pushed God away more and more). That's why his life was filled with sin and misery. Just because someone has earthly power doesn't mean they're living a grace-filled life.

Third, there is another factor at play distinct from whether or not God's presence is positively active in someone's life. That factor is free will. If God were to pull back the free will gift the moment someone, like Hitler, misused it, then that would not really be free will.

So, in my thinking, Hitler pushed God's presence away (probably early in his life). His life the, more and more, filled with sin and evil and misery and chaos. The withdrawal of God's presence does not always result in sudden death. Free will factors come into play. Some evil individuals and groups are able to protect their earthly lives through force and violence for quite some time.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Homer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:22 pm

Thanks Matt, I have a better understanding of your position and agree about Uzzah.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Paidion » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:23 pm

Hi Steve, you wrote:Are you sure that you read my posts to you? Where did I ever quote John 10:10 in order to contradict your position? I didn't remember citing this scripture, and when I looked back at my previous posts, I failed to locate my having done so. You may be referring to my citation of Luke 9:56—"The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." This verse is not found in the most ancient manuscripts, and comes from the Texts Receptus. This raises questions as to whether or not it was an authentic saying of Christ, but the sentiments expressed are not controversial, and I believed you would accept it as correct.
Yes, you are correct. Although I correctly remembered your quote, "The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them," I couldn't find it in the Westcott Hort Greek text or in the translations I use, and so I presumed I must have been mistaken, having found the somewhat similar text that I quoted from John 10:20. I then thought that was the text you had quoted. Unfortunately, I didn't refer back to your post in order to get the actual text that you quoted. Sorry about that.

However, it makes no difference to my argument. Even if your quote from Luke 9:56 were in Luke's original document, the argument I offered still holds, that is: (1) if God does not kill people, then Jesus doing the works of the Father during His earthly life would not, of course, include killing people and (2) the fact that Jesus "came not to destroy men's lives but to save them" would also be consistent with God not killing people, since Jesus is Another exactly like the Father.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by steve » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:13 pm

I will not waste the time pointing out again the fallacy of this statement. I have done so twice already in recent posts, and you apparently did not notice.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:13 pm

I'm glad you're not wasting your time, Steve.

To all who post at this forum, I want to say that Richard Murray's argument for the goodness of God differs from mine.

His position is that in early Hebrew times, Satan was considered to be an agent of God, so that if Satan did an evil deed, such as bringing disaster upon people or killing people, one might as well say that God did it, since it was thought that Satan could not act independently of God. For example, 2 Samuel 24:1 states that God incited David to number Israel (I'm not sure why that was evil, but David, having done it, saw the need to repent of it), whereas 1 Chronicles 21:1(written possibly 500 years later) states that Satan incited David to number Israel. By that time, the Hebrew concept of Satan was one in which Satan acted more independently. The latter view of Satan continued on into New Testament times.

Murray solves "the problem of evil" through his view that God does not allow evil in any way. He points out that though God is considered to be omnipotent, there are some things that He cannot do. For example, He cannot lie (Titus 1:2). If God is omnipotent, why can He not lie? Because it is contrary to His character. He can do only those things that are consistent with His character. It is inconsistent with God's character to force mankind to act righteously. He gave man free will, and thus will not use force, cannot use force, to prevent the atrocities that occur daily in our fallen world. To use force against man's free will decisions is contrary to His character. Thus God CANNOT prevent the evil actions of man, anymore than He can lie.

Murray's view makes sense to me, but I am not yet certain that it is correct. I am still pondering it.

For those interested in reading Murray's book "God Versus Evil" free, the pdf of the book can be downloaded at the following site:

http://www.thegoodnessofgod.com/file/God-vs-Evil.pdf
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by steve » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:39 pm

If God cannot prevent evil men from carrying out their schemes against the righteous, then how is it that, when Christ's enemies sought to arrest Him, on several occasions, they were not able to do so "because His hour had not yet come" (John 7:30; 8:20)? Who, if not God, was preventing His enemies from harming Him prematurely? And why, when they did finally arrest Him, does the scripture speak of God's having "delivered" Him to them (Acts 2:22)? It sounds as if Jesus was invincible until it was His time to be killed, because God protected Him.

When Jesus prayed in the garden, He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Take this cup from me" (Mark 14:36). It is clear that, unlike Richard Murray, Jesus believed that rescuing Him was one of the things possible for God to do, were it His will to do so. Was Jesus wrong as well? In fact, Jesus affirmed that He could have called twelve legions of angels to deliver Him, which would certainly have involved God's forcible interference in the plots of those seeking to arrest Him.

If God cannot protect us from the free-willed actions of our enemies, then why does God so often promise that He will do so? What was the "hedge" around Job, which Satan complained that he could not penetrate, and which prevented Job from being harmed (Job 1:10)? What is the purpose of the angel of the Lord encamping about those who fear Him, to deliver them, if God's agents cannot defeat the free-will plans of those who wish to harm us (Ps.34:7)?

What is meant by the Psalm that says, "For they intended evil against you, they devised a plot which they are not able to perform" (Psalm 21:11). Does this not suggest that plots of men can be thwarted, without doing violence to the biblical doctrine of free-will?

How can we view any of the promises, such as, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper" (Isa.54:17)? Who killed all the Assyrian troops outside the walls of Jerusalem, thwarting Sennecharib's free-will and delivering Hezekiah, if not God (2 Kings 19:35)? The Bible says it was God. Who do you say did it?

Richard Murray, in order to sustain his heretical view of God's impotence to save, must deny as many scriptures as you deny in claiming that God does not kill. Why don't you guys write a new Bible and start a new religion, rather than seeking to dismantle the one that has served the Christian faith for 2,000 years?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:36 pm

Steve, you wrote:Richard Murray, in order to sustain his heretical view of God's impotence to save, must deny as many scriptures as you deny in claiming that God does not kill. Why don't you guys write a new Bible and start a new religion, rather than seeking to dismantle the one that has served the Christian faith for 2,000 years?
Don't you think this kind of response is inappropriate when directed toward a person who has been seeking truth and reality for his entire adult life? It seems to me that your sentiments border on hate. I guess you didn't find it a waste of time to express these negative emotions.

You quoted: "And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me," though you omitted, "Yet not what I will, but what you will.” (Mark 14:36). What was your purpose? To show that nothing is impossible for God to do? If so, do you think it IS possible for God to lie, and therefore do not accept Hebrews 6:18 which indicates that it is impossible for God to lie? Also how do you harmonize Mark 14:36 with Matthew 26:39, since you seem to claim that all of the Bible is true and consistent when rightly interpreted in the way that you do. Matthew's record indicates that Jesus used a conditional clause in recording the same incident:

Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

Since the Father didn't remove the cup of suffering, isn't there a sense in which it was impossible for Him to do so?—the sense in which it was necessary for Jesus to suffer and die for the salvation of humanity?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
willowtree
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:56 pm
Location: Sooke BC Canada

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by willowtree » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:02 pm

Paidion wrote:
...Murray solves "the problem of evil" through his view that God does not allow evil in any way.
I don't think he (Murray) solves the problem at all. If God does not allow evil in any way, then he would not have bothered coming to earth in any form to deal with it.

I am more of the opinion that God not only allowed it, he intended it. You might have to read all the way into the book of Revelation before you discover that the lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the earth; that is long before the apple was hung on the tree. But I don't think it's the first clue. Jesus himself addresses the problem of evil in John 9 when the disciples were discussing the predicament of the man born blind. It was so that the work of God could be displayed in his life.

Paul, I think, would also agree with me when he says, "Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. "

Graeme
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:21 pm

Willowtree wrote:Jesus himself addresses the problem of evil in John 9 when the disciples were discussing the predicament of the man born blind. It was so that the work of God could be displayed in his life.
Do you really think God would cause a person to be born blind so that His work could be displayed in the man's life? God is LOVE; But to do that—to make that man live in blindness all those years in order that He might heal him later on in order to display His work is not LOVE. Surely there were many people already blind that He could heal without having deliberately to make someone blind for that purpose.

In John 9, it's all a matter of punctuation. In the Greek text of the first two centuries, there were no periods, question marks, or other punctuation. There was not even any spaces between words, and all text was written in uppercase characters.

The ESV renders the passage, with the thought that God made the man blind in order to display His work in him, as follows:
And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. (John 9:2-4)


And similarly with virtually all other translations. But what if all of these translators put the punctuation in the wrong places? What if the apostle John actually meant it as follows?

And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents. But that the works of God might be displayed in him, we must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. (John 9:2-4)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Post Reply

Return to “Major and Minor Prophets”