Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

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Paidion
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Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

Post by Paidion » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:28 pm

According to Ezekiel, it sounds like it, and not only children, but fathers, also.

And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in your midst, and sons shall eat their fathers. And I will execute judgments on you, and any of you who survive I will scatter to all the winds. (Ezekiel 5: 9,10 ESV)

In the following passage, Yahweh says that to save the children of his people, but He will MAKE their oppressors eat their own flesh. Does their "own flesh" refer to the children of their oppressors? The clause would seem to be in contrast to "I will save your children," that is, "I will save your children, but make your oppressors eat theirs." However, I suppose one could argue that the word "flesh" refers to the physical flesh of the eater, and that God forces them to eat it, whether they want to or not.

For thus says the LORD: “Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken, and the prey of the tyrant be rescued, for I will contend with those who contend with you, and I will save your children. I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh... (Isaiah 49: 25,26 ESV)

Lev 26:28, Jer 19:9, and Lam 2:20 also speak of eating children, but it is not as clear in the last two passages that Yahweh causes it.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

Post by dizerner » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:07 pm

All I can say is, "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."

In this age where the love of many is growing cold, I wouldn't hesitate to back down from the highest view of inspiration. I won't say that I like it or any evils in the world since the original sin that brought suffering and sin into a perfect paradise. I wish the world weren't the way it was and I have to fight the sin in my own heart that would grumble at God's ways. I will say that verses like these—although God says in this very verse it is a rare and extreme form of judgment for generations of sin—scare me. A lot Scripture scares me. Did Jesus alleviate all those fears? Well, in some regards, but not in others. Christ seemed to find a perfect balance between the kindness and severity of God. He would say precious tender promises of God, yet not hold back the sheer terror of forsaking him. God is just... like that. And he doesn't make apologies about it. Have you read the list in Deuteronomy of blessings on one side versus curses on the other? One sounds really, really good, and the other really, really bad. And Calvinists have a real valid point in that, only a work of grace can make you love a God that doesn't necessarily make you feel comfortable or seem just to your natural sense. The fear of God drives me to the promises of his grace and mercy with a fervency that nothing else could. You see times when spiritual giants were quite disturbed by the judgments they saw, like Aaron the high priest watching his own sons die, or David watching Uzzah fall dead. And I'm sure Peter wasn't thrilled either at Ananias in Sapphire, in fact it said great fear came upon them all. But doesn't it say perfect love casts out fear? Yet fear of YWHW is the beginning of all knowledge and wisdom. Well, the only perfect love is Christ, and hiding in his work does remove the fear of judgment day, as it says in that passage. But I think fearing God is one of the strongest overall themes of Scripture and an incredibly important lost truth in much of the church, and it leads for a very sloppy and unexamined lifestyle with real and important consequences. We don't read God's punishments or judgments and deduct "this is what God desires." God himself literally begs his people to obey him. What king begs his subjects to obey him? Such humility, yet such authority. I agree that God is perfect love but also mixed with perfect holiness, and he won't sacrifice one for the other, and that's why Christ had to die to express God's love. It wasn't just a example, it wasn't just an act, God had to literally die he hated sin that much. And when we experience the new birth, scales fall of our eyes, and we say that's what I deserve, that's what I had coming to me, there go I but for the grace of God, and we praise God's just and holy judgments and worship him for it. In this world, and especially America, where it's "my way, right away, all the way, every day" consumerism, we lose sight of the fact that God doesn't owe us anything, not even his love. Yet there's a promise of a way to accept God's love his way, the way he ordained, and if someone gets offended at that way, it's his foolishness and her loss. We have a mercy seat we can run to and hide in, and I highly advice, even plead, that one seriously consider living by faith in Christ's work. There is a wrath of God that Scripture is crystal clear every soul will experience that does not have that faith.

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steve
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Re: Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

Post by steve » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:21 pm

Paidion,

I think that the conditions of siege that caused some people to eat their children are conditions of judgment that God brought upon Jerusalem and on Samaria. He didn't literally compel them to eat their own children, but HIs judgment did leave them in severe hunger. Some people succumb to terrible behavior under such pressure. God is not the author of their decision. He is the author of their circumstance, and of the pressures that attended it.

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Paidion
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Re: Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

Post by Paidion » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:28 pm

Thank you, Steve, for your thoughts concerning the matter. I take it that for you, the sentence, "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh," actually indicates that God is saying He will create conditions such that they would eat their own flesh." But I wonder whether that is very much different. When a parent "makes" their child do something, doesn't he do it by creating conditions such that the child will obey? Maybe he pulls out a strap, or theatens to ground him—or if he is a more loving parent, perhaps he promises a reward. It seems to me that any kind of coercion of a person involves creating conditions so that the person will comply. Even a thief who tells his victim to hand over his wallet, may create the condition of fear in his victim by pointing a gun at him. But, or course, it might be different in the case of God. One could argue that He didn't want the people to eat their children; He only predicted that they would eat their childen under those conditions.
Dizerner wrote:The fear of God drives me to the promises of his grace and mercy with a fervency that nothing else could.
I don't think that God wants you to fear Him in the sense of being afraid of Him. In fact, I am sure that He doesn't want it. It is difficult to be terrified of someone while simultaneously having feelings of love for him or her.

Paul advocates that wives should fear their husbands. But most translations render the Greek word as "respect." I think the same meaning applies to the fear of God. It's a healthy respect for God. When we truly respect Him, we will love Him and obey Him.
Paidion

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Singalphile
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Re: Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

Post by Singalphile » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:37 pm

"Eat[ing] their own flesh" and being "drunk with their own blood" could only be a graphic description of severe famine. It's not necessarily the case that anyone actually ate their dead children or parents. And has been mentioned, I do think it's more of a statement about what the punishment will lead them to do, literally or hyperbolically.

When I read about such judgment and punishment, I remind myself that I'm insulated. In my world, everybody is pretty decent, doing the best they can, just a bit misguided maybe. Only on a few occasions, I think, has some horrible sin (not against me) been in my face enough that it made me really hate it and be angry about it. God's perspective is complete, and he can rightfully judge and punish.

So that's how I respond, as someone who accepts those passages as God-breathed, useful for teaching, reproof, etc.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Paidion
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Re: Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:05 pm

Dizerner wrote:It's not necessarily the case that anyone actually ate their dead children or parents.
Help me, Dizerner, to understand your statement. Are you saying that, with the following words which Ezekiel ascribed to God, God was not making a prediction that they would actually eat their sons or their fathers? — that it was but figurative language?

And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in your midst, and sons shall eat their fathers.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Singalphile
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Re: Did God Cause People to Eat Their Own Children?

Post by Singalphile » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:45 pm

That was me, Paidion. I was thinking of the Isaiah 49 passage. After looking over the Ezekiel passage briefly, I would say that it could be a figure of speech, yes. As I understand it, Ezekiel contains apocalyptic or figurative language.

I think if you look at the whole passage (below), you could see it that way. But also, I'm not sure that the eating of (presumably) dead family members is the worst thing mentioned in the passage, so I'm not trying to water down the statement to defend a position. I was just pointing out that it kind of sounds like a figure of speech, at least maybe.
Ezekiel 5 (ESV)

5 “Thus says the Lord God: This is Jerusalem. I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. 6 And she has rebelled against my rules by doing wickedness more than the nations, and against my statutes more than the countries all around her; for they have rejected my rules and have not walked in my statutes. 7 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you are more turbulent than the nations that are all around you, and have not walked in my statutes or obeyed my rules, and have not[a] even acted according to the rules of the nations that are all around you, 8 therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, even I, am against you. And I will execute judgments in your midst in the sight of the nations. 9 And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. 10 Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in your midst, and sons shall eat their fathers. And I will execute judgments on you, and any of you who survive I will scatter to all the winds. 11 Therefore, as I live, declares the Lord God, surely, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your detestable things and with all your abominations, therefore I will withdraw.[c] My eye will not spare, and I will have no pity. 12 A third part of you shall die of pestilence and be consumed with famine in your midst; a third part shall fall by the sword all around you; and a third part I will scatter to all the winds and will unsheathe the sword after them.

13 “Thus shall my anger spend itself, and I will vent my fury upon them and satisfy myself. And they shall know that I am the Lord—that I have spoken in my jealousy—when I spend my fury upon them. 14 Moreover, I will make you a desolation and an object of reproach among the nations all around you and in the sight of all who pass by. 15 You shall be[d] a reproach and a taunt, a warning and a horror, to the nations all around you, when I execute judgments on you in anger and fury, and with furious rebukes—I am the Lord; I have spoken— 16 when I send against you[e] the deadly arrows of famine, arrows for destruction, which I will send to destroy you, and when I bring more and more famine upon you and break your supply[f] of bread. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will rob you of your children. Pestilence and blood shall pass through you, and I will bring the sword upon you. I am the Lord; I have spoken.”
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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