Did God Really Do This?

User avatar
TK
Posts: 1477
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:42 pm
Location: North Carolina

Did God Really Do This?

Post by TK » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:45 pm

Ezek 24:15-18
NIV: 15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, with one blow I am about to take away from you the delight of your eyes.(Y) Yet do not lament or weep or shed any tears. 17 Groan quietly; do not mourn for the dead. Keep your turban fastened and your sandals on your feet; do not cover your mustache and beard or eat the customary food of mourners.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and in the evening my wife died.

NKJV: 15 Also the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “Son of man, behold, I take away from you the desire of your eyes with one stroke; yet you shall neither mourn nor weep, nor shall your tears run down. 17 Sigh in silence, make no mourning for the dead; bind your turban on your head, and put your sandals on your feet; do not cover your lips, and do not eat man’s bread of sorrow.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died; and the next morning I did as I was commanded.

NASB: 15 And the word of the Lord came to me saying, 16 “Son of man, behold, I am about to take from you the desire of your eyes with a blow; but you shall not mourn and you shall not weep, and your tears shall not come. 17 Groan silently; make (W)no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban and put your shoes on your feet, and do not cover your mustache and do not eat the bread of men.” 18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and in the evening my wife died. And in the morning I did as I was commanded.

MSG: 15-17 God's Message came to me: "Son of man, I'm about to take from you the delight of your life—a real blow, I know. But, please, no tears. Keep your grief to yourself. No public mourning. Get dressed as usual and go about your work—none of the usual funeral rituals." 18 I preached to the people in the morning. That evening my wife died. The next morning I did as I'd been told.
It SEEMS like God killed Ezekiel's wife for the purpose of an object lesson. Can that be right?

TK

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by darinhouston » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:37 pm

Couldn't it just as easily be said that He was going to take his wife in any event and so He let him know either so it could be used as an object lesson or as an act of mercy to help him get through it? I sometimes have a similar dialogue when I'm going to do something I know my son will likely overact to. I don't do the thing to invoke the object lesson, but I want him to avoid having a merely visceral reaction so I let him know and remind him of his right and thoughtful response.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:07 pm

TK, the context of the verse you quoted certainly indicates that that was the meaning the author intended. But tell us what you think, TK.

Does Yahweh killing an innocent person for any reason (or even a guilty person) sound like the Father of which our Lord said "He is kind to the ungrateful and the evil." (Luke 6:35). Jesus, who is Another exactly like His Father, instructed His disciples to love their enemies, pray for them, do good to them, feed them if they were hungry, etc.
So Jesus and His Father both wanted love and kindness toward enemies, and toward the unthankful, wicked people.

Would the God of LOVE who loves even the unlovable and is kind to them, kill Ezekiel's wife as a sign that He would profane the beloved sanctuary of the Israelites, the delight of their eyes, and instruct them not to weep just as Ezekiel was instructed not to weep for his beloved wife, the delight of his eyes?

We must either answer "No," or else explain away God's supposed action here, as well as His killing a man for steadying the Ark of the Covenant when it was about to fall, and His law to have parents get their rebellious sons stoned, and His command to cut off a woman's hand if she tries to assist her husband when he is losing a fight by grabbing his opponent's genitals, etc., etc., etc.

And Darin, even if God intended to kill his wife anyway, the problem still stands. Does the loving Father kill people?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by steve » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:11 pm

The Lord took my wife, on November 27th, 1980. It never occurred to me to question whether that day was better or worse than any other would have been, in the will of God, for her to die. I would have found it equally difficult on any other day. I always believed she (like myself) belonged to God to do with as He pleased. I assumed He would someday take her (and me too), and that the timing and means of that event was happily His prerogative. She and I only hoped that the days of our deaths, like all the days leading up to them, would be in the will of God, and would glorify Him optimally.

If Ezekiel was wrong about this, then he did not know how to hear God accurately, and was no prophet.

Paidion, you have often chosen to disregard the scriptures whenever you judge them to depict God in a way that seems harsh to you. Not only the prophets, but Paul also tells us to observe both the goodness and the severity of God. You seem to portray a one-dimensional Jesus. You are willing to behold His goodness, but not His severity. I trust Moses, the Prophets, and the Apostles (as well as Jesus) to correctly represent God to us. If they were not faithful in doing this, then God made poor choices (He could, after all, have chosen someone more qualified—like yourself). If we select which passages of scripture to endorse and which to jettison, based upon our sentiments, we will have a sentimental religion merely, containing a god fashioned in our own image.

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Singalphile » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:12 pm

I explain all such things in the same way:

God knows 100% of all there is to know. I know 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% (maybe) of all there is to know.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:32 pm

My first wife also died — on Feb 22, 1997. Not for one moment did I think that God killed her (or "took her" as the euphemism goes). She died from the effects of Sjogren's Syndrome, a rare disease which affected the moisture in her body. For years, she had constantly to take sips of water, and frequently had to lubricate her eyes, etc. She also had internal bleeding for about a year prior to her death. In the end the Sjorgren's destroyed her liver, and also an artery burst, and the doctor tried to get a plane to take her to Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg. But the major planes were iced up. I heard the doctor phoning, almost pleading, "Get me a plane — any plane!" But all planes were iced up. Was that all part of God's plan to kill her? I disbelief that nonsense with all of my heart! So she was taken there by ground ambulance while blood was continuously pumped into her veins. When she arrived a blown-up bag (for lack of the technical term) was inserted down her throat to plug the flow of blood. She was allergic to anti-biotics as she had an auto-immune condition. Nevertheless they were used, and several more surgeries were performed. They spoke to me about arranging to go to Eastern Ontario where she would receive a liver transplant, but at some point they stopped talking about that. I think they had given up. She was conscious until the end; indeed the doctor said he had never seen anyone in that condition while still conscious. She had a beatific smile for everyone. I think God had given her a glimpse of people, not as they are, but as they will be in the resurrection. She couldn't speak because of the breathing tube in her throat. I was informed that she wasn't getting any better, and the medical decision was to remove life support after putting her under heavy anaesthetic so that she would feel no pain when she died. The day before this was done, the doctor actually asked her if she wanted to die right then, or the next day after seeing some more of her relatives. This was rather shocking for me. Life support was removed the following day, and she died from suffocation. Was this all part of God's plan? Did God take her? Nonsense! Her disease took her, and her death was hastened by the medical authorities. I do not say that it was wrong of them to do so. I make no judgment at all on that matter. I don't have enough information to make a judgment.

Some say that since God "allows" particular events (that is, does not prevent them from happening) then it must be His "permissive will" that they happen. This, too, from my understanding is meaningless nonsense. God had nothing to do with my wife's death or any of the atrocities which occurs daily due to man's inhumanity to man.

I think the idea ludicrous that there is a time, written in stone, when God "takes" every individual, a time where "it is appointed" for each individual to die, and that it is impossible to die at any other time. Death is unnatural — it came about as the result of the fall of man. God has not interfered much with the consequences of the fall. The meat-eating animals developed (or "evolved" if you will) when He originally provided plants and the fruit of plants for all mammals on earth, including man — insects and arthropods included. Mosquitoes and wood ticks did not originally suck the blood of people and animals to produce their young, but sucked the juices of plants for this purpose. As we all know, every individual of every species on earth dies at some point — either by accident, or some other form of life devouring it or killing it in some other way. God has nothing to do with death until the day it will be cast into the lake of fire. The day will come when God will restore all things to what they were meant to be. Paul put it this way:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed into us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of the one subjecting it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our placing as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved... (Romans 8:18-24)

So God seldom intervenes with the working of nature, including fallen nature. He will restore it all in His time. He will reconcile all to Himself in His time. He is totally good, totally LOVING, and totally GOD! We need to make the best of this fallen world, submit to Christ's words as to how to live the most fulfilling, productive life, and rejoice in our relationship to the Father and to the Son. One of the most important matters in life is to refrain from attributing to God attitudes and actions which are contrary to His character. This is perhaps the worst of all blasphemies.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Homer » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:40 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Some say that since God "allows" particular events (that is, does not prevent them from happening) then it must be His "permissive will" that they happen. This, too, from my understanding is meaningless nonsense. God had nothing to do with my wife's death or any of the atrocities which occurs daily due to man's inhumanity to man.
To say this you must believe God was powerless to prevent what happened to your wife and the atrocities that occur. And it is useless to pray for anyone. As in Calvinism, it will not change anything.

I do not know Ezekiel's age when His wife died or how long they were married. My wife and I will soon be married 53 years and I think it would be harder for me if she dies before I do than if it occured years ago. My love for her continues to grow.
Last edited by Homer on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Homer » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:47 pm

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
Paidion, you have often chosen to disregard the scriptures whenever you judge them to depict God in a way that seems harsh to you. Not only the prophets, but Paul also tells us to observe both the goodness and the severity of God. You seem to portray a one-dimensional Jesus. You are willing to behold His goodness, but not His severity. I trust Moses, the Prophets, and the Apostles (as well as Jesus) to correctly represent God to us. If they were not faithful in doing this, then God made poor choices (He could, after all, have chosen someone more qualified, like yourself). If we select which passages of scripture to endorse and which to jettison, based upon our sentiments, we will have a sentimental religion merely, containing a god fashioned in our own image.
This is a very close approximation to what I feel about universalists. :shock: My wife hopes universalism is true yet says "who can read their bible and believe it". Well, it isn't hard. It is a very difficult thing for someone to believe that which they do not wish to believe.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by steve » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:24 am

Homer,

You say that it is hard for someone to believe what they do not wish to believe. In context, this appears to be an accusation against universalists, suggesting that they actually can see the biblical case for eternal torment, but, because they do not wish to believe it, they simply reject it. It seems to me that you have lately shown yourself more willing than in former times to judge the motivations of Christians, whom you do not even know, in the most uncharitable manner.

I believed in the traditional view of hell for most of fifty years—and didn't at any time wish it to be true! I still don't wish it to be true, but that has never had any influence on my choice of what to believe. My sympathy for the plight of homosexuals also inclines me to wish that their lifestyle might not have to be condemned, but I have to stand with scripture—not my wishes. I have rejected the traditional view of hell for the same reason, and for no other.

You say that universalists choose their beliefs based on their sentiments? What does this suggestion mean?

Do you mean that they do what I pointed out Paidion doing—viz., deciding which scriptures are inspired and authoritative (and which are not) upon the basis of how he feels about them? I pointed out that Paidion simply discounts any scriptures that tell us that God kills, injures or in any way temporally judges human beings. Are you saying that universalists casually dismiss passages of scripture in this manner? Which passages?

The universalists I have read tend to spend a lot of their ink exegeting every scripture they can find that may have bearing one way or another on the case under consideration. I haven't found any of them dismissing or questioning the authority of any passage in the Bible on the subject of hell. I have never read a universalist who said, "This verse just doesn't sound like God to me, so I'll say it isn't inspired and disregard it." If there are universalists who take such an approach to certain passages, then they are not the universalists I have read, nor are they the ones who post here.

Do you know of some scripture that any evangelical universalist has treated so cavalierly in their advocacy of universalism? If you would name a few such passages, I would be happy to inform you of what the universalists say about them—since I actually read their books—though you should already know, since you have been interacting here with them for years. Did you catch any of them ignoring or challenging the inspiration of any passage you have brought up against them?

It seems to me that the universalists do not argue on the basis of their sentiments, but they often argue on the basis of God's sentiments, as they are revealed in Christ. In your judgment, is this a bad approach to theology?

I am puzzled to find you taking every opportunity to level false accusations against a group of Christians who take the scriptures as seriously as you do, and who have reached conclusions that even your wife wishes she could reach (I think we all agree that even God would like universalism to be true). Maybe you could show her the dialogs you have had here with universalists. She might be able to be convinced of the scriptural merits of the position her Christian heart inclines her to desire. Wouldn't it be amazing if the promise proved to be true that God will give those who delight in Him the desires of their hearts? What Christians would not desire with all their hearts the salvation of all the lost (at least the ones related to them and the ones they personally like)? Your wife might be relieved to find that the view she desires has a much stronger scriptural case than does the view nobody could possibly desire. Wouldn't you like for your wife to be happier? ;-)

User avatar
Perry
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Did God Really Do This?

Post by Perry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:11 am

Homer wrote:My wife and I will soon be married 53 years and I think it would be harder for me if she dies before I do than if it occured years ago. My love for her continues to grow.
Congratulations Homer!

My wife and I have only been married 21 years, but I feel the same toward her. We are the happiest couple I know.

Post Reply

Return to “Major and Minor Prophets”