Isaiah

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Perry
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Isaiah

Post by Perry » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:08 am

Okay, so in to prepare for the upcoming GCS, I've been giving Isaiah a more detailed reading.

There seems to be a complex interweaving of theme and message, text and subtext, duality of message, and I wonder whether I'm reading more into it than is there sometimes.

Sometimes there seems to be a message to Israel. Sometimes there seems to be a message too and about the Messiah. Sometimes there seems to be a message/promise/warning to me personally. And sometimes it seems like it's all three at the same time. This is at once beautiful, and disconcerting. It's beautiful to see all these ideas interwoven and the interplay of theme/text/subtext; a marvelous use of language. It's disconcerting because I rarely have great confidence that I'm "getting" it and wonder if sometimes I'm "reading in" more than is really there.

I'm looking forward to GCS where all my questions will be answered and I will fully understand this marvelous book ;)

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steve
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Re: Isaiah

Post by steve » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:03 pm

Me too!

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Perry
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Re: Isaiah

Post by Perry » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:14 am

Okay, so take 56:1-8 (which happens to be where I am this morning) as an example.

Leaving off the message to eunuchs and Gentiles for the moment...
Do we spiritualize this and say, "well this isn't talking about literal sabbath keeping and offerings, we can spiritualize it and apply to ourselves".
Or do we take it at face value and conclude that it's not meant for present-day Christians, and apply it only to Isaiah's immediate audience which seems to be the then-time remnant of Israel?

And if we choose the second option, then does that mean that vv 9-12 have no application to present-day Christians?

If we choose to spiritualize, what is our guide for doing so? When is it okay to spiritualize and when is it not?

Another example from today's studies comes from the previous chapter.
55:11-12 Is this a direct reference to Christ, or is it more generic and than that?

Most importantly, what are our guidelines for when to apply it to then-time Israel only, and when to consider a dual application that applies to the present Christian community as well?

Looking forward to hearing answers to these questions and more...

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Paidion
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Re: Isaiah

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:00 am

Perry, do you regard commands given by God which were to be literally carried out by the Israelites as a picture of things to come "spiritualizing"?

Many regard the commands to offer sacrifices in a particular manner (though God did not require them per se) as a picture of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Is that "spiritualizing" the commands to sacrifice?

Hebrews 4 appear to suggest that the Sabbath commandment though meant literally for the Hebrews was a picture of a different commandment to come:

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said,
“They shall not enter my rest.” Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience.
Again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.


Today, those who enter the Sabbath rest which God has prepared have ceased from their own works. What works are these? According to Justin Martyr they are evil works. Justin stated to Trypho and the other Jewish people with him that they supposed that they were pious because they were idle one day a week. But Christians, he said, keep perpetual Sabbath in that they have ceased from their former evil works and that ceasing continues every day.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Perry
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Re: Isaiah

Post by Perry » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:50 am

Paidion wrote:Perry, do you regard commands given by God which were to be literally carried out by the Israelites as a picture of things to come "spiritualizing"?
Yes, I suppose I do... although I don't want to get bogged down in the semantics of that word.

And please understand, I don't, by use of that word, mean for it to carry any sort of negative connotation. I think it's perfectly valid to look at the spiritual anti-types of many types that are found in the old testament, and it seems to me "spiritualizing" is a valid term for that type of interpretation.

But I'm not sure it's legitimate to do it all the time, and so, I'm looking for guidance as to when it is appropriate to spiritualize, and when it is not.

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