Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

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Ian
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Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by Ian » Fri May 04, 2012 3:52 am

Ezekiel 33:11:
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.

Deuteronomy 28:63:
Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.

I heard Steve quote the Deuteronomy verse on yesterday`s programme. The Ezekiel verse then occurred to me. Can these two verses be reconciled to each other, as regards the character of God?

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TK
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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by TK » Fri May 04, 2012 6:52 am

I was hoping that looking at a couple of other translations would save the day, but nope-- even The Message says something very similar.

That is a tough one, unless we can distinguish between a rebellious Israel and "the wicked" in general.

TK

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darinhouston
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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 04, 2012 7:30 am

Good question Here's what Google revealed ( I think from a Calvinist ).

So is there a contradiction between these texts and Ezekiel 33:11? No, there is not. There is confusion on this point because Ezekiel 33:11 is easily misunderstood. The second part of the verse is key to understanding its meaning. The text is not trying to say that God never delights in the death of the wicked. Rather, the verse means that God prefers for sinners to repent rather than to perish. If they refuse to repent, however, God delights in His own justice enough to punish them appropriately (e.g., Psalm 1:5-6; 5:4-6; 68:2; Isaiah 13:1-22; Jeremiah 18:11). Sometimes that justice begins with the imperfect ministers that He has appointed to bear the sword (Romans 13:4). For this reason, we have to be willing to praise God for His justice one way or the other (Psalm 139:19-22; Proverbs 11:10; 28:28; Revelation 19:1-3).

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darinhouston
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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 04, 2012 9:11 am

darinhouston wrote:Good question Here's what Google revealed ( I think from a Calvinist ).

So is there a contradiction between these texts and Ezekiel 33:11? No, there is not. There is confusion on this point because Ezekiel 33:11 is easily misunderstood. The second part of the verse is key to understanding its meaning. The text is not trying to say that God never delights in the death of the wicked. Rather, the verse means that God prefers for sinners to repent rather than to perish. If they refuse to repent, however, God delights in His own justice enough to punish them appropriately (e.g., Psalm 1:5-6; 5:4-6; 68:2; Isaiah 13:1-22; Jeremiah 18:11). Sometimes that justice begins with the imperfect ministers that He has appointed to bear the sword (Romans 13:4). For this reason, we have to be willing to praise God for His justice one way or the other (Psalm 139:19-22; Proverbs 11:10; 28:28; Revelation 19:1-3).
I think one could say that if God is in any way like us he takes no personal pleasure in any individual suffering for any reason on a "personal" level (if I dare). However, given His love for the righteous and for righteousness, if one is not willing to do the right thing, then there is a satisfaction in the justice being done on behalf of the rightous offended and the offense to righteousness and justice that there is satisfaction in the act of justice even if He might still shed a tear that the individual (or nation) never repented.

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darinhouston
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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 04, 2012 9:45 am

This is a bit more robust and satisfying (though I only skimmed it -- I'll read it later when I get tht time)...

http://www.xcalvinist.com/category/supplement

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jriccitelli
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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by jriccitelli » Fri May 04, 2012 11:10 am

No 'good' parent takes 'pleasure' in the punishment of an ill behaving child.
And no 'good' judge, or jury, takes 'pleasure' in the conviction and punishment of a guilty crime.
But at the same time no good parent could be 'pleased' that they 'did not' punish the guilty child when later his behavior is even worse.
The same for all repeat offenders, when the behavior worsens the judge and jury can take 'no' pleasure if their lack of discipline towards the offenders results in harm to others and a breakdown in morality among all observers. There is a sense of pleasing in justice, but only to prevent future crimes and to protect others from injustice (I am happy that my child went to the dentist and had his cavities drilled, pleased in the matter, not pleased about the pain and suffering).

It is this sense that God is pleased in the matter of Justice, but indeed saddened that it had to be this way. (Due recompense to our 'own' actions) To not administer justice is unjust, and therefore it is pleasing to administer un-pleasurable punishment.

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Ian
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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by Ian » Fri May 04, 2012 12:34 pm

The excalvinist link was very good, Darin, thanks. His premise seems to be essentially simple but entirely morally plausible:
God derives no pleasure from the death of the somewhat wicked (particularly those perhaps who came close to repenting) but does derive pleasure from the death of the profoundly or even irreversibly wicked.

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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by steve7150 » Sat May 05, 2012 5:32 pm

Ezekiel 33:11:
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.

Deuteronomy 28:63:
Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.

I heard Steve quote the Deuteronomy verse on yesterday`s programme. The Ezekiel verse then occurred to me. Can these two verses be reconciled to each other, as regards the character of God?








Is it possible that one encapsulates the Old Covenant relationship of God and man and the other the New Covenant relationship?

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Deuteronomy 28:63 versus Ezekiel 33:11

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun May 06, 2012 12:21 am

The two passages use different Hebrew verbs (different Greek verbs also in the Septuagint). Someone might attempt to make some hay of that.

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