Where is Elijah (and Enoch)?

[darinhouston]

Steve has come the closest to helping me with the question of where Jesus is presently since He's in His resurrected body yet the New Earth is yet to come, but the answer given (extra-physical nature of His body and the ability to come in and out of physical substance) poses a difficult question as to Elijah (and perhaps Enoch) (who were supposedly "whisked away" without death). The answer can't be given for them or else Christ wasn't the first fruits of the resurrection, no?

I actual lean towards both of them dying natural deaths, and the "transportation" just the sort of thing that happened also to Ezekiel and even Philip.

Thoughts/ideas?

[Suzana]

Thoughts/ideas?

I tend to think of Philip’s experience as instant teleportation – sort of like he blinked and found himself elsewhere all of a sudden.

Act 8:39-40 KJV
(39) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
(40) But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

In the case of Elijah, it specifically says he was taken up to heaven:

2Ki 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

....a difficult question as to Elijah (and perhaps Enoch) (who were supposedly "whisked away" without death). The answer can't be given for them or else Christ wasn't the first fruits of the resurrection, no?

There must have been some point to the dramatic chariot of fire episode, surely? Seems a bit of overkill if he was just going to be dropped somewhere else to die?
And something out of the ordinary regarding Enoch’s end? - unusually worded as it is:

Gen 5:20 KJV
(20) And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
cf
(24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

- If they were whisked into heaven without dying, then technically they are not resurrected, so Christ is still the first-fruits of the resurrection.

- Perhaps they just by-passed Sheol, their bodies did die on their way up, and their souls are in heaven awaiting the general resurrection, like (as some believe) the rest of the believers who have died since Jesus’ ascension?

- Perhaps it’s one of those mysteries we’ll never know this side of the grave!

[darinhouston]

. 2:7 The fifty members of the prophetic guild went and stood opposite them at a distance, while Elijah and Elisha 6 stood by the Jordan. 2:8 Elijah took his cloak, folded it up, and hit the water with it. The water divided, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
2:9 When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “What can I do for you, 7 before I am taken away from you?” Elisha answered, “May I receive a double portion of the prophetic spirit that energizes you.” 8 2:10 Elijah 9 replied, “That’s a difficult request! 10 If you see me taken from you, may it be so, but if you don’t, it will not happen.” 2:11 As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a fiery chariot 11 pulled by fiery horses appeared. 12 They went between Elijah and Elisha, 13 and Elijah went up to heaven in a windstorm. 2:12 While Elisha was watching, he was crying out, “My father, my father! The chariot and horsemen of Israel!” 14 Then he could no longer see him. He grabbed his clothes and tore them in two. 2:13 He picked up Elijah’s cloak, which had fallen off him, and went back and stood on the shore of the Jordan. 2:14 He took the cloak that had fallen off Elijah, 15 hit the water with it, and said, “Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah?” When he hit the water, it divided and Elisha crossed over.

This sounds to me like it isn't talking about a supernatural event seen by all. Taken in context, it seems that it is more something along the lines of a "vision" that Elisha would only see if he had been given the prophetic gifts Elijah had received, and was a test of sorts. Taken this way, perhaps it is a prophetic view of the spiritual reality that occurred when Elijah died naturally. The translation notes below suggest that there was symbolic meaning to the chariot experience, which further supports that view. Interesting too that the term for "heaven" used here seems to be the term used to describe the air and space above the planets and not specifically to the abode of God (though I'm not sure what term is actually used in that context in the OT -- perhaps the same -- at best, it's an ambiguous term).

14 sn Elisha may be referring to the fiery chariot(s) and horses as the Lord’s spiritual army that fights on behalf of Israel (see 2 Kgs 6:15-17; 7:6). However, the juxtaposition with “my father” (clearly a reference to Elijah as Elisha’s mentor), and the parallel in 2 Kgs 13:14 (where the king addresses Elisha with these words), suggest that Elisha is referring to Elijah. In this case Elijah is viewed as a one man army, as it were. When the Lord spoke through him, his prophetic word was as powerful as an army of chariots and horses. See M. A. Beek, “The Meaning of the Expression ‘The Chariots and Horsemen of Israel’ (II Kings ii 12),” The Witness of Tradition (OTS 17), 1-10.

The text surrounding Enoch's "departure" is certainly odd to my modern ears, but it could well just refer to his having died.

For both of them, I'm left with the question "where is their physical bodies" if they really did depart without death. That their spirits may be dwelling in heaven along with the other Saints leaves me with the question how their spirits can leave their bodies without them dying and, if not, how their physical bodies can be in a purely spiritual realm. Maybe they just "vaporized" on the way up and they did die but left no bodies behind? It's odd to say the least, and smells to me a bit more like tradition than exegesis to suggest they didn't die.

[TK]

Somewhere on this forum Paidion stated that he believed Elijah and Enoch are still alive, somewhere, and that they will be the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation. he referenced the verse "it is appointed unto men once to die..." I will try to find the thread, because i think i asked him where he thought they were. i think he responded but i cant remember what he said. hopefully i can find the thread.

TK

[TK]

I cant find the exact thread. i did find some threads where paidion said the early chrstians held the belief that elijah and enoch were being preserved alive by God but I couldnt find the thread I am remembering.

TK

[Suzana]

This sounds to me like it isn't talking about a supernatural event seen by all. Taken in context, it seems that it is more something along the lines of a "vision" that Elisha would only see if he had been given the prophetic gifts Elijah had received, and was a test of sorts. Taken this way, perhaps it is a prophetic view of the spiritual reality that occurred when Elijah died naturally. The translation notes below suggest that there was symbolic meaning to the chariot experience, which further supports that view. Interesting too that the term for "heaven" used here seems to be the term used to describe the air and space above the planets and not specifically to the abode of God (though I'm not sure what term is actually used in that context in the OT -- perhaps the same -- at best, it's an ambiguous term).

I agree it wasn’t an event seen by all – not even the sons of the prophets presumably watching on the other side of the Jordan. They may have been too far away by now, or it was not given to them to see – Elisha could have had his ‘eyes opened’ like his young servant’s later on –
2Ki 6:17 KJV
(17) And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

...perhaps it is a prophetic view of the spiritual reality that occurred when Elijah died naturally...

In that case it’s puzzling as to what happened to Elijah’s body, since 50 men searching for three days couldn’t find it (2Kings 2: 16-18).

It’s interesting too that it’s those same prophets that knew prophetically that Elijah was to be taken up that day, who urged that a search be made for Elijah’s body, so either they didn’t understand what really happened, or it’s our understanding that’s askew. At any rate, Elisha didn’t expect a body to be found, but he was ‘ashamed’ into letting them search, which is more confusing again.

It's interesting too that these prophets proposed: (2Kings 2:16)
let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master:
lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley
It makes one wonder what their thought processes were - if God did that, presumably He would have a good reason, and perhaps they should leave well alone.

I suspect it may be an unsolvable mystery, but it’s certainly interesting to explore the possibilities.
I also like the notion that God will so often do things outside the boxes we try to place Him in!

TK, I also remember that discussion with Paidion, but not the details, (& don't have time to help look now)

[darinhouston]

Personally, I think God probably just destroyed the body when he took his soul so that no one would find it - so that no one would create a shrine or something to worship him or fight over his body, etc.

[TK]

Elisha's dead body came in handy to the dead guy that got thrown on top of his skeleton and was brought back to life. that story still mystifies me.

TK