Why did Jesus stop reading?

[Paidion]

Well, Homer, my view is that Moses interpreted the fact of the World-Wide Flood as the act of God, and then wrote that God said that He would blot out man, and destroy all the (other) people of the earth? For how would Moses know what God had said to Noah? For Moses wasn't born until long after the Flood. Or do you think that God directly told him what He had said? Today, there are still plenty of people who interpret the fact of floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. as God's judgment on people.

However, here's how Richard Murray deals with the Mosaic account of the Flood. First a thought experiment:

Imagine Jesus angrily entering a bathroom where a young girl is bathing and playing in the tub. Jesus sneers down at the child in disgust. He then reaches down and pushes the girl's head down underneath the tub water. Jesus then continues to hold her little face underwater while her arms flail wildly about in panic, grasping and gasping for air. As the water gradually fills her lungs, she eventually slows her thrashing, and then stops moving altogether. She is dead. Now check your response. Your understandable reaction is, "NO, that's outrageous, and blasphemous. Jesus would NEVER do that. How dare you propose that!"Experiment over! Now, let me ask you another question. If we can't believe this of Jesus, then HOW on earth can we tell our children that Jesus did that exact same thing (or its homicidal equivalent) in the Old Testament, and not only to one child, but to EVERY child in the world during Noah's day, to EVERY firstborn child in Egypt, to EVERY child in Sodom and Gomorrah, and to ALL the enemies' children killed by Israel pursuant to God's command in the Promised Land incursions. So, what do we tell our children? That Jesus is a child-killer? May it never be! And yet, we do THAT very thing whenever we read our children Noah and the Flood story books without ever explaining the truth about the passages involved. And, usually that is one of the very first stories we read to them about God! No wonder their little eyes open wide in terror when they hear this story.

And here is how Richard Murray deals with the Flood and who caused it:

QUESTION 20: DID JESUS DROWN ALL THE CHILDREN IN THE WORLD WITH A KILLER FLOOD? OR .......... WAS IT SATAN? SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT...God drowned millions of babies and children in the worldwide flood in Noah's day. Then God consigns those same babies and children to writhe in flames of torture for all eternity? Death by drowning followed by torture by fire forevveerrrrrr. Hmmm. Sounds like someone should call the Cosmic Child Protection Agency. And quick! There is a cosmic child abuser on the loose. OR JUST MAYBE..... We have confused the nature and works of God with the nature and works of Satan. Jesus clears all this mistaken identity stuff up in the Bible if we will just let Him. Jesus was clear that Satan has been the murderer from the beginning (John 8:44), that Satan has the power of death (John10:10; Hebrews 2:14), and that Jesus came to destroy Satan's works by infusing divine life into every situation He encountered (1 John 3:8). "Be not deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning." James 1:16-17. If you believe the Old Testament is to be read "by the letter" at all times, and that each Old Testament Scripture carries the exact same weight and depth of understanding as any and all New Testament Scripture, then you are forced to believe the following. Jesus killed a world full of children in the Old Testament. Jesus killed a nation full of Egyptian firstborn infants and children. Jesus killed a huge city full of children of all ages in Sodom and Gomorra, not to mention all the other children killed in the various Biblical bloodbaths, including even Israelite children under God's killing wrath. Many would call all these infanticides judgment by a "holy God who cannot allow sin to go unpunished." But, that image hardly fits in with the Jesus the Holy Ghost now reveals, the same Jesus who loved and protected children so. And, as is commonly said, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Jesus saves children, He doesn't drown them, burn them, stone them or smash their heads against rocks as described in the Old Testaments. He is the same forever on this point. Some would claim that the Old Testament passages I am citing are somehow being taken out of context. No they are not. God clearly killed them all, at least if you read it according to "the letter of Scripture." However, when we read by "the Spirit of Scripture,"as Jesus did, and as Paul did when he allegorized numerous Old Testament passages to mean something other than just what they "literally" said, we see something else altogether. Jesus came in the New Testament to reveal that Satan was NOT God's left hand of destructive wrath. Satan was a cosmic rebel who opposed God's will on every level, and in whose power the whole fallen world lies. 1 John 5:19. Satan was the Old Testament dispenser of death, not God. Hebrews 2:14. Judaism has always considered Satan to be the death angel. Jesus revealed that the destructive works the Old Testament attributed to God were, in reality, the destructions of Satan. Judaism sees Satan as a friend to God, not an enemy. Do you think Satan was just twiddling his thumbs in the Old Testament while God did all his dirty work? Jesus laid it out for us in no uncertain terms. Stealing, killing and destroying is of the devil, not of God. John 10:10. Satan was the liar and murderer from the beginning, not God. John 8:44. Jesus came to expose Satan's methods, not adopt them. He came to destroy the works of Satan altogether. 1 John 3:8. So, did God intentionally drown millions of children, women and men in Noah's day? No! Not then, not now, not ever. Then why does the Old Testament appear to say that He did? Simply put, the Old Testament was written from a perspective which saw Satan as an obedient angel of God with a tough job, but who ultimately was just following the Lord's orders. Jesus, in contrast, revealed in His teachings and tone that Satan was violently OPPOSED to His Father's will RATHER than humbly submitted to it. Read most any Jewish religious reference material on Satan, and you will see they believe that Satan was the death angel who smote all the Egyptian firstborn, supposedly at the Lord's command. And not just the Egyptians. Jews still believe that Satan is the grim reaper who ultimately kills all men at God's sole command. The book of Job shows Satan kills with sickness ("boils"), with nature ("a great wind"), with other violent men ("Sabeans with swords"), and with supernatural power ("fire from heaven"). Satan is a master assassin who kills a million different ways, but always, the Jews believe, at the express command of God.

As THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JEWISH CONCEPTS by Philip Birnbaum says, "Satan...is...identified with the ANGEL OF DEATH. He leads astray, then he brings accusations against man, whom he slays eventually. His chief functions are those of temptation, accusation and punishment. Under the control of God, he acts solely with the divine permission to carry out his plots." (Sanhedrin Press, page 594). Rabbi Benjamin Blech similarly writes, "Judaism sees Satan as a servant of God whose function is to set up choices between good and evil so that we can exercise our free will.... [His] apparent harshness is merely camouflage for divine concern and love." IF GOD IS SO GOOD, WHY IS THE WORLD SO BAD? Simcha Press, pages 7-9.

So, the culprit in the world-wide flood is, according to Jewish thought, Satan. And they are RIGHT about THAT----- Satan's fingerprints are the ONLY ones found on the Genesis flood. But what the Jews, both ancient and modern, are WRONG about is their belief that Satan is an obedient angel merely doing what God expressly tells him to do. In the New Testament, we get a significantly different picture. While Hebrews 2:14-15 confirms that Satan, as "the devil," does indeed have "the power of death," Jesus' purpose in bearing the cross was to "deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Put even more bluntly in this passage, Jesus ascended the cross in order to "destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Jesus came to destroy the works of the destroyer. 1 John 3:8. But Jesus destroyed them not with His "alleged" counter-wrath, but with His sacrificial love. Jesus came to reveal that all forms of "death" and "violence" were enemies of God and never a part of His divine nature. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 defines the dynamic of "death" as an "enemy" of God to be "put under His feet" until it's "destroyed."

So, if the Old Testament saints were confused and not able to differentiate the purposes of Satan and God, what does this imply about their ability to distinguish between the voices of God and the devil? Well, it allows for the absolute mother of all mistaken
identities--- confusing the voices of God and Satan--- or, just as tragic, mistakenly combining their TWO voices into ONE bipolar voice. Like a high static radio, which sometimes receives two different signals at once, the Old Testament saints were hearing from both Yahweh and Satan, sometimes alternatively, and sometimes simultaneously. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, they could not distinguish between both voices, again just like a radio receiving two different stations although the dial is only on one setting. The Old Testament saints assumed both voices were from God, that both WERE God.But, Jesus came to correct all misunderstandings about His Father. We have the anointing BECAUSE of Jesus to go back and properly divide Scripture, just like He did in Matthew 5:38-48. Jesus came to reveal His Father's light and Satan's darkness, something the Old Testament saints were clueless about. John 1:18.

So, in regard to the flood, what role did Satan play and what role did God play? Satan did the killing-- all of it. Why do we know this? Hebrews 2:14-15 says Satan has "the power of death," not God. God is not a killer-- period. He could not have sent the flood
because the New Testament says He doesn't kill. But, Satan sure does. And I'm sure we agree that Satan was not off somewhere twiddling his thumbs in the Old Testament while God was wiping out the whole earth's population save one family. If God is the
killer of evil men, who needs Satan? Jesus called Satan the "murderer from the beginning," not His heavenly Father. Yet, what exact role did God play in the process? I believe the event transpired as follows: Men continually sowed wickedness in the earth
until their thoughts and imaginations were purely evil (Gen. 6:5). God foreknew their expanding unbelief and that Satan would have greater and greater access to afflict and destroy all evil men in 120 years. This was because they were continually quenching and "pressuring away" the Lord's protective Spirit by increasingly giving their hearts over to the devil (Gen. 6:3). God warned His righteous Noah to build a protective Ark for Noah and his family to avoid the Satanic wrath to come. (Gen. 6:8-22). Satan continued to "accuse" God that He should repent of ever making mankind and that they had to be wiped out (Gen.6:6-7). God responded that His righteous Noah would not fail and that his righteous seed would be preserved (Gen. 6:8). Satan released his killer flood and the wicked perished (Gen. 7:10-24). God's protective spirit contracted down to the size of Noah's ark and brought them through the flood and blessed Noah and his sons and said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." (Gen. 9:1). I freely admit to excavating, renovating and elevating Moses's version of the flood to comply with the New Testament understanding of God's role in the world. This is the only reading that keeps God from being clearly guilty of death, disaster and destruction. I don't believe the New Testament teaches that God directly causes natural disasters. Such events are caused by Satan through access given him by men's sinful sowing. God's protective Spirit is eventually quenched away by the unbelief of men. God's protective hedge constricts and a constricts and constricts until the freewill of the men involved finally gets their way in turning themselves over to Satan's wrath. Then God is forced to withdraw and Satan is allowed space to execute his wrath through the curses of the law, a wrath which Revelation 12:12 says is "great upon the earth." Some may say that 2 Peter 2:4-10 suggests that the New Testament confirms that God brought the flood of Noah on the world of the ungodly. However, in consulting two different interlinear Bibles, one by Paul McReynolds and the other by Jay P. Green, the passage is found to literally say that "the flood the world of irreverent ones having brought on." In other words, this passage says that the flood was brought on by the sowing of wicked men. Men continually sowed the sin, thereby progressively quenching away and constricting down God's protective Spirit over the next one hundred and twenty years. Satan ultimately brought the full harvest of destruction, but God continued to protect righteous Noah.

Whenever the Old Testament literally, "by the dead letter" in other words, contradicts the New Testament image of God revealed by Jesus Christ, we are compelled and authorized to excavate, renovate and elevate its meaning to align with New Covenant truth. Jesus repeatedly did this exact thing, not only in Matthew 5, the sermon on the mount, but also in such passages as Luke 4:18-20, where Jesus edits the phrase "to declare the vengeance of our God" out of the Isaiah 61:1-2 passage He was quoting to
declare the purpose of His ministry. He purged the wrath out of the passage in other words. Our challenge is to stop reading the Bible just by context, and instead read it by Holy Spirit subtext. I believe 2 Corinthians 3 commissions us to do this very thing.
"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us ABLE MINISTERS of the new covenant, NOT 'of' the LETTER but 'of'
the Spirit; for THE LETTER KILLS, but THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE." 2 Corinthians 3:4-6.

Jesus is not a child-killer! A child-thriller yes! But a child-killer NEVER!

[steve]

Paidion,

Your entire exegesis seems to rest on the validity of this assertion:

It may have been a mixed crowd. But when he said, "I baptize you with water," he was addressing his disciples.

This goes directly against the testimony of the gospels, which tell us that "all Judea, and all the region beyond the Jordan [not only John's disciples] went out to him and were baptized by him..." (Matthew 3:5-6)

If all of Judea and Transjordan were being baptized, and hearing John preach, why would you say that his words, "I baptize you with water" were only directed to the small group that identified as his disciples? Were all those people in the whole country disciples of John? Did all of those people also become disciples of Jesus, and get baptized with the Holy Spirit?

It is evident, that everybody in that region, with few exceptions, were baptized in water by John. There is no indication that all of those who got baptized also became John's disciples, and then Jesus' disciples. Where are you getting this?

It is evident that John could not tell all of those whom he baptized with water (apparently nearly the whole pop;elation of the region) that they would also get baptized with the Holy Spirit. Yet, you are making the first group coextensive with the second. It is fair to assume that less than half (perhaps less than 10%) of those whom John baptized with water ended up being baptized in the Holy Spirit and members of the Church.

"You" means the crowd generally. They were all (or almost all) baptized in water—but later some were baptized with the Holy Spirit, and some with fire.

[Paidion]

This goes directly against the testimony of the gospels, which tell us that "all Judea, and all the region beyond the Jordan [not only John's disciples] went out to him and were baptized by him..." (Matthew 3:5-6)

If all of Judea and Transjordan were being baptized, and hearing John preach, why would you say that his words, "I baptize you with water" were only directed to the small group that identified as his disciples?

John proclaimed, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt 3:2). Jesus proclaimed the same in exactly the same words (Matt 4:17). Even Paul proclaimed the message of the Kingdom (last verse in Acts). Those who heard Jesus' words and acted on them became His disciples and were baptized. His disciples numbered in hundreds, well beyond the twelve. Those who heard John's words and acted on them and were baptized became John's disciples (or "learners" which is what the word "disciples" means). Clearly "all Judea and the region beyond the Jordan" were not baptized by John. This is a figure of speech to indicate that there were many from both these regions who WERE baptized by him. But there were also many, such as the Pharisees, who rejected his message. So John WAS addressing his disciples when he said, "I baptize you with water." That is what he did for those who accepted his message. He didn't baptize those who rejected it. Yes, it was a mixed crowd.

[Homer]

in regard to the flood, what role did Satan play and what role did God play? Satan did the killing-- all of it. Why do we know this? Hebrews 2:14-15 says Satan has "the power of death," not God. God is not a killer-- period. He could not have sent the flood
because the New Testament says He doesn't kill.

Genesis 6:7,13,17 (NASB)

7. The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

13. Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.

17. Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.


So Moses, the lying false prophet, even had Jesus fooled!

And Richard Murray, filled with the Holy Spirit to discern these things, as few if any Christians, nay, even the Apostles were, has now brought light out of darkness that we may see!

[Paidion]

Congratulations, Homer on your bits of sarcasm! But realistically, did you read and understand Richard Murray's basic argument? He indicated that the ancient Hebrews believed that Satan was an agent of THE LORD (Yahweh), and that therefore Satan doing an act was tantamount to Yahweh doing that act. Thus Moses recorded that God had done these acts of violence and killing.

Richard Murray even showed that this concept persisted into modern times by quoting from THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JEWISH CONCEPTS: ""Satan...is...identified with the ANGEL OF DEATH. He leads astray, then he brings accusations against man, whom he slays eventually. His chief functions are those of temptation, accusation and punishment. Under the control of God, he acts solely with the divine permission to carry out his plots." (Sanhedrin Press, page 594)." Richard Murray also quoted Rabbi Benjamin Blech who writes, "Judaism sees Satan as a servant of God whose function is to set up choices between good and evil so that we can exercise our free will.... [His] apparent harshness is merely camouflage for divine concern and love." IF GOD IS SO GOOD, WHY IS THE WORLD SO BAD? Simcha Press, pages 7-9.

[steve7150]

Congratulations, Homer on your bits of sarcasm! But realistically, did you read and understand Richard Murray's basic argument? He indicated that the ancient Hebrews believed that Satan was an agent of THE LORD (Yahweh), and that therefore Satan doing an act was tantamount to Yahweh doing that act. Thus Moses recorded that God had done these acts of violence and killing.








Was this your position before meaning that Satan did it or did you change your position somewhat?

[Paidion]

Was this your position before meaning that Satan did it or did you change your position somewhat?

My position has been that Moses couldn't have known what God said about destroying the earth via a flood unless it was revealed to him. Thus I thought that Moses interpreted the fact of the Flood as having been an act of God, just as modern people interpret disasters such as earthquakes, floods, and tsunamis, as God's punishment upon the people who are affected by them.

However, Richard Murray's explanation makes sense to me, and so I think it could possibly be the correct one.

[Paidion]

In his novel "Donal Grant," George MacDonald wrote the following:

I do not believe that mere punishment exists anywhere in the economy of the highest; I think mere punishment a human idea, not a divine one. But the consuming fire is more terrible than any punishment invented by riotous and cruel imagination. Punishment indeed it is—not mere punishment; a power of God for his creature. Love is God's being; love is his creative energy; they are one:God's punishments are for the casting out of the sin that uncreates, for the recreating of the things his love made and sin has unmade. —Donal Grant, Chapter LXXI, The Crypt

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

Congratulations, Homer on your bits of sarcasm! But realistically, did you read and understand Richard Murray's basic argument? He indicated that the ancient Hebrews believed that Satan was an agent of THE LORD (Yahweh), and that therefore Satan doing an act was tantamount to Yahweh doing that act. Thus Moses recorded that God had done these acts of violence and killing.

Yes I read it but may have misunderstood his point. I thought he was saying the Jews believed this but Jesus showed their idea to be false. Apparently you and he believe it true - that Satan was God's agent in "acts of violence and killing".

Again I ask, and never get an answer, what difference do you think it makes whether God directly kills or does it through an agent? If I hire a "hit man" to kill someone am I a better person than if I do it myself? And I assure you that I believe that God caused the flood and His righteousness is in no way lessened by doing so.

This discussion calls to mind C. S. Lewis' "God in the Dock".

[steve]

John proclaimed, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt 3:2). Jesus proclaimed the same in exactly the same words (Matt 4:17). Even Paul proclaimed the message of the Kingdom (last verse in Acts). Those who heard Jesus' words and acted on them became His disciples and were baptized. His disciples numbered in hundreds, well beyond the twelve. Those who heard John's words and acted on them and were baptized became John's disciples (or "learners" which is what the word "disciples" means). Clearly "all Judea and the region beyond the Jordan" were not baptized by John. This is a figure of speech to indicate that there were many from both these regions who WERE baptized by him. But there were also many, such as the Pharisees, who rejected his message. So John WAS addressing his disciples when he said, "I baptize you with water." That is what he did for those who accepted his message. He didn't baptize those who rejected it. Yes, it was a mixed crowd.

If this strikes you as a strong rebuttal to my points, Paidion, then I will leave it with the abilities of readers to assess arguments to reach their own conclusions.