Psalms 58

Post by **_schoel** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:17 am

How is David's attitude towards evil men reconcilable in light of Christ's teaching?

For instance compare Psalms 58:10-11 with Matthew 5:43-48.

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:49 pm

It can't be reconciled. In another Psalm, David said that He hated his enemies with a perfect hatred.

The "righteous" men of old were not righteous in the same sense that a disciple of Christ is righteous. They were not regenerated, and thus did not have the new nature that does not hate, seek vengeance, etc. They did not have the enabling grace of Christ, or if they did, even though Christ had not yet died, it was not in the same measure or fullness as those under the New Covenant.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:26 pm

I think on David's deathbed he asked God to avenge some wrongdoing done to him. The annointings of the Holy Spirit in the OT were not permanent ,they were for specific reasons i believe.

Post by **_Anonymous** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:06 am

When we pray for our enemies and bless those that curse us, does that preclude us from praying that they would be stopped in their evil doing?

Most of Psalm 58 seems to be a prayer that God would render evil doers powerless using kind of humorous imagery; toothless lions, melting snails, and broken arrows. He seems to want an quick end to evil, asking that it be swept away like in a moving stream or a whirlwind. Is that in opposition to repaying evil with good? I mean, we don't want evil to flourish just so we can fulfill the Sermon on the Mount, do we? (I'm truly asking, not making a point.)

I have trouble with the last two verses, which are the ones Schoel focused on, where it talks about the righteous washing their feet in the blood of the wicked. Yikes. What does that mean anyway? If that's the reward for the righteous, I'd rather pass.

Post by **_Homer** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:36 am

Did David say anything that would be in violation of the law? How can we expect David to have lived in accord with Christ's teachings?

Post by **_schoel** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:53 pm

Homer wrote:Did David say anything that would be in violation of the law? How can we expect David to have lived in accord with Christ's teachings?

Weren't Christ's teachings a principled repetition of the moral aspects of the law?
Are we saying that those who lived in the time of the Old covenant had more freedom to hate or be vengeful?

In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus said:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Was Jesus expanding the OT law, or correcting a "tradition of the elders"?

Finally, if OT saints were allowed more grace regarding their attitude toward evil people, weren't the Psalms inspired by the Holy Spirit? Why would the Holy Spirit want this recorded for us?

Good discussion!

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:13 am

Was Jesus expanding the OT law, or correcting a "tradition of the elders"?

It seems that it may have been the latter. For although the instruction to "Love your neighbour" is found in Lev 19:18, the imperative "Hate your enemy" is found nowhere in the OT.

Also, Jesus did not say that God gave this command, but rather "you have heard that it was said..."

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:56 am

It is my opinion Jesus' teachings are as far above the Law as Jesus is above Moses. For example, in the sermon on the mountain, Matt. 5:20ff, Jesus informs the crowd that their righteousness, the righteousness of those in His kingdom, must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. He immediately makes mention of the inadequacy of one of the Ten Commandments regarding murder and them informs them of the source of murder: anger and contempt in the heart. The law was inadequate in changing the heart. Not commiting murder does not make one a good person.

Though the law may not have said "hate your enemy" it certainly sanctioned revenge, even specifying how far you could go. ("eye for an eye" &c.)

Post by **_Roger** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:26 pm

There are evil people on this earth. Sometimes we can suffer great loss at their hands. I've had houses and vehicles broken into, hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of tools stolen. I had my check book and tax returns stolen by a ring of theves once and they drained four thousand dollars out of my bank account before I could blink. They were later caught by the police and my things along with that of many others were recovered. I don't tell you these things so you can feel sorry for me. I'm sure you have suffered some of these things also, and some of you probably have stories to tell which are far worse then mine. I simply bring these matters up in response to this question here.

I think Psalm 58 is wonderful. It tells us of our wonderful righteous God who is higher than man and can move in ways that we may never imagine to vindicate not only Himself but also us at times. I hesitate to share personal stories on this site concerning other people but I am impressed with the reality of God and that He is real and we can bring all matters to Him in prayer. Time may pass and it may not seem to us that God hears us or is even listening to us. But as the Lord told us in the gospels that God will answer us because of our persistance.

I like the last part of verse 11 "Surely He is God who judges in the earth."