Now, About that Leviathan

Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon
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TK
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Location: North Carolina

Now, About that Leviathan

Post by TK » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:00 am

From Job 41:
1 “Can you catch Leviathanwith a hook
or put a noose around its jaw?
2 Can you tie it with a rope through the nose
or pierce its jaw with a spike?
3 Will it beg you for mercy
or implore you for pity?
4 Will it agree to work for you,
to be your slave for life?
5 Can you make it a pet like a bird,
or give it to your little girls to play with?
6 Will merchants try to buy it
to sell it in their shops?
7 Will its hide be hurt by spears
or its head by a harpoon?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will certainly remember the battle that follows.
You won’t try that again!
9 No, it is useless to try to capture it.
The hunter who attempts it will be knocked down.
10 And since no one dares to disturb it,
who then can stand up to me?
11 Who has given me anything that I need to pay back?
Everything under heaven is mine.
12 “I want to emphasize Leviathan’s limbs
and its enormous strength and graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its hide,
and who can penetrate its double layer of armor?
14 Who could pry open its jaws?
For its teeth are terrible!
15 Its scales are like rows of shields
tightly sealed together.
16 They are so close together
that no air can get between them.
17 Each scale sticks tight to the next.
They interlock and cannot be penetrated.
18 “When it sneezes, it flashes light!
Its eyes are like the red of dawn.
19 Lightning leaps from its mouth;
flames of fire flash out.

20 Smoke streams from its nostrils
like steam from a pot heated over burning rushes.

21 Its breath would kindle coals,
for flames shoot from its mouth.

22 “The tremendous strength in Leviathan’s neck
strikes terror wherever it goes.
23 Its flesh is hard and firm
and cannot be penetrated.
24 Its heart is hard as rock,
hard as a millstone.
25 When it rises, the mighty are afraid,
gripped by terror.
26 No sword can stop it,
no spear, dart, or javelin.
27 Iron is nothing but straw to that creature,
and bronze is like rotten wood.
28 Arrows cannot make it flee.
Stones shot from a sling are like bits of grass.
29 Clubs are like a blade of grass,
and it laughs at the swish of javelins.
30 Its belly is covered with scales as sharp as glass.
It plows up the ground as it drags through the mud.
31 “Leviathan makes the water boil with its commotion.
It stirs the depths like a pot of ointment.
32 The water glistens in its wake,
making the sea look white.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal,
no other creature so fearless.
34 Of all the creatures, it is the proudest.
It is the king of beasts.”
In this passage, God is doing the talking. Assuming the author is presenting something God actually said to Job, then what is Levaiathan? I know, I know.. people says its a crocodile. But that last time I checked, crocodiles don't shoot fire out their mouths. Sounds like a dragon (or Godzilla) to me.

If it IS a crocodile, why did God say it breathes fire? If this is a mere poetic device, then is not the entire book a poetic device? and if this is the case, can we take any solid theology about Satan, (especially in the early chapters) from the book?

TK

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RickC
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Re: Now, About that Leviathan

Post by RickC » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:56 am

Hi TK

The great Swiss theologian Karl Barth, in his only visit to the U.S., was asked questions after his lectures. A woman read questions submitted by the audience. One she asked was, “Do you think that the serpent in the garden actually spoke?”

Barth waited for a moment, then replied, “Madam, it doesn’t matter whayth'r zeh serpent actually spoke or not! Vhat matterse ees: Vhat did zeh serpent say!?” {audience laughter}

Barth was being humorous and serious in his answer {I've got the lecture around here some place. Barth was funny & very theologically deep at the same time. You'd have to hear him to get-the-effect}, anyways....
________

To answer you generally:
Taking literary genre' into account, I'd say:
Yes, we can come up with a theology of Satan using Job and the rest of the Bible.
I also use non-canonical resources. I was just studying about the devil this morning {in a long, ongoing study}.

I've never tried to figure out exactly what Leviathan was. Probably because a lot of people say it was a dinosaur, which I find stretching it a bit.
Rev 20:3 (NIV) wrote: He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
Is the devil a dragon and a serpent? No, not literally. Steve points out in his Rev 20 lectures: 1) the devil isn't a reptile, 2) nor a mythical beast. These are symbols of what he, a spirit, is like.

I think we're probably seeing similar symbology in your Job text. I don't necessarily take Leviathan "breathing fire" literally. It means something literal {in what is written, and in the style & genre' it's in, etc.}. I've never really thought about this much till now....
Gtsy, TK, :)

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Jason
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Re: Now, About that Leviathan

Post by Jason » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:56 am

I once heard Greg Boyd say that he thought Leviathan was a reference to something in the demonic realm. Personally, I think it's referring to an animal that doesn't exist anymore. Have you ever seen a Cuddle Fish stalk it's prey? It's the most incredible thing. The fish's entire body starts flickering with rainbow neon lights which hypnotizes the prey, allowing the Cuddle Fish to pounce on it.

If the Cuddle Fish had gone extinct by our day, yet was described in the scriptures as this sea creature that lit up in bright colors while stalking its prey, we might also discuss whether or not the passage was being literal or poetic. :)

Singalphile
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Re: Now, About that Leviathan

Post by Singalphile » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:05 pm

Jason wrote:
I once heard Greg Boyd say that he thought Leviathan was a reference to something in the demonic realm.
Hank Hanegraaff has a similar view. He says that these Job passages are veiled references to the adversary, Satan.

I read his recent article about it. Here's an older mention of it on his show (about 4:40 in): http://www.equip.org/audio/questions-an ... -hank-674/

That doesn't seem all that convincing, imo.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

thrombomodulin
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Re: Now, About that Leviathan

Post by thrombomodulin » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:55 pm

I thought this was a good suggestion.

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