Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon
steve7150
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:29 pm

When you use the word 'incited,' do you include the idea of 'gave permission'?
Michelle







Yes but as Steve pointed out, God called Job blameless twice so although he was not perfect you can't call him evil. God did destroy people because they were evil and interfered with his redemption plan but he never destroyed people capriciously and IMHO it violates his character to do that. Therefore i think Job uses figurative language to reveal two main things. Satan's actual power and that Job's faithfulness was rewarded. If i'm the only one with that opinion that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

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TK
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by TK » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:15 pm

steve7150 wrote:
he never destroyed people capriciously
i think that is the crux of the difficulty, at least for me. That is what God SEEMED to do to Job, just because satan made a challenge. And it wasn't just Job that was affected-- his wife was certainly affected; his children were killed, the servants and shepherds were killed, etc.

Like I said at the outset, the whole "set up" of the book is what bothers me. If the book had simply started with the story of a man who had great misfortune fall on him, and how he reacted and how God revealed Himself in his misfortune, it wouldn't be problematic for me at all. But those first couple of chapters are pretty rough.

TK

SteveF

Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by SteveF » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:27 pm

Selah wrote:
but what about Job 3:25? I've heard from Word of Faith people that Job's fear and dread gave satan an "open door" to enter his life and hurt him.
A few years after leaving the WOF teaching I was listening to a song by Michael Card called Job Suite. I think he grabbed the essence of what this verse (Job 3:25) is saying. In his lyrics he wrote, (as if from Job’s perspective) “What I’ve dreaded most has now come upon me”. It immediately dawned on me that in all of my arguments about whether it was Job’s fear or not that caused his plight I had missed the forest for the trees. The main point of this verse, and others like it, was to illustrate what Job had to endure was the worst thing imaginable to him. In other words, think of the most horrible thing that could possibly happen to you (what you would dread) and that’s what Job went through. In spite of all this he did not curse God.

This may seem obvious to others but in order to respond to the WOF teaching I found myself wrapped up in technical arguments and missed the main point.

If you’re interested, here’s a link to Michael Card’s song (the lightning sounds and so forth are added by the pastor who posted it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QBnWLRn7Ww

Steve

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Homer
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by Homer » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:37 pm

Steve7150 wrote:
Yes i understand God works out all things for good to those that love him. My point was about whether God actually incited Satan or whether Satan had the power to persecute Job on his own.
Until God "lifted the hedge", Satan was unable to afflict Job, thus God, by removing His protection, gave Satan the power to afflict Job, but not without limits as to what Satan could do. God is in control.

Job 1:9-12 (New King James Version)
9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.


(The bolded and underlined words translated "hand" and "power" are the same Hebrew word yad.)

Selah wrote:
Yes, this is what they say...and it has always stumbled me, because I thought it was a sin to fear. Perhaps my conscience works overtime.
I've got to spend some time thinking and praying about your perspective because I sure have thought it was a sin to fear and dread.
The Apostle Paul appears to have had some fears that he needed encouragement to overcome:

Acts 18:9-10 (New King James Version)
9 Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city.”


Note that Jesus did not berate Paul for fear, but encouraged him, and this is what I believe God does when he tells us to not fear. Fear is an emotion, and as such is difficult to control. Consider a loving father encouraging a young boy at bat in a baseball game. He might tell the boy "don't be afraid, you can hit the ball", not to make the boy think he might get punished, but to encourage him.

steve7150
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:59 pm

In other words, think of the most horrible thing that could possibly happen to you (what you would dread) and that’s what Job went through. In spite of all this he did not curse God.





That's true and is the most important point of the story and God blessed Job , yet Job had to suffer even worse because he had a wrong understanding of God.
In Job 21.19 "God stores up a man's punishment for his sons" Job went on to say "Let God repay the man himself so that he will know it" 21.19

Job believed God punished his sons for his sins. Job was deceived, i ask who is the deceiver?

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Michelle
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by Michelle » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:07 pm

steve7150 wrote: Yes but as Steve pointed out, God called Job blameless twice so although he was not perfect you can't call him evil. God did destroy people because they were evil and interfered with his redemption plan but he never destroyed people capriciously and IMHO it violates his character to do that. Therefore i think Job uses figurative language to reveal two main things. Satan's actual power and that Job's faithfulness was rewarded. If i'm the only one with that opinion that's fine, we can agree to disagree.
I, for one, will agree to disagree for three reasons:
  • 1) I don't see that God allowed calamity to befall Job capriciously. I see that removing the hedge of protection was to try Job's faith; that he stood firm in the test doesn't make God's will capricious.

    2) You say that this story reveals Satan's power; I see that this story reveals the limits to Satan's power, since Satan could not do anything that God did not allow. I'm not sure (and am open, as always, to correction if I misrepresent you here,) but it seems like you have Satan being all powerful (at least in the Old Testament) and God reduced to making the best out of what Satan throws at His people. I think this is a misrepresentation of the power of God.

    3) Everyone dies. Some die horrible, untimely deaths; some die peacefully in old age. Either way, the universality of death is sure, and, although certain deaths are caused or delayed by the consequences of people's actions, most seem to be inexplicable. Death is the result of sin, resurrection is the hope of the redeemed.
Last edited by Michelle on Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

steve7150
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:11 pm

Until God "lifted the hedge", Satan was unable to afflict Job, thus God, by removing His protection, gave Satan the power to afflict Job, but not without limits as to what Satan could do. God is in control.




Yes God is in control to the extent he chooses to control. In the OT how many folks had a hedge around them? Just the nation of Israel and not all the time as they came under judgment for disobedience.
Meanwhile Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" which was the world outside the hedge. Look at all the evil in the world from Adam because man chose his ruler.
True Satan could'nt kill Job but he killed his family and he has the power of death in this age.

steve7150
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:28 pm

but it seems like you have Satan being all powerful (at least in the Old Testament) and God reduced to making the best out of what Satan throws at His people. I think this is a misrepresentation of the power of God



I'll try my best to repeat what i said about Satan and God and it's up to you how you view it,





Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world (John 12.31)
Satan has the power of death (Heb 2)
Paul said Satan is the god of this age (2nd Cor 4.4)
In Luke 4 and Matt 4 , Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, Jesus often called Satan a liar but not here.
God allowed Jesus to be tested by a worthy opponent , if Satan were not powerful the tempting of Jesus would mean little.

So based on the above Satan sounds powerful but certainly God is omniscient and omnipotent therefore whatever Satan did was by God's allowance. However i think God's allowance is not the short leash most Christians believe but a long leash because of man himself choosing Satan instead of God and God honoring man's choice because of God's integrity.
Last edited by steve7150 on Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

steve7150
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:32 pm

Everyone dies. Some die horrible, untimely deaths; some die peacefully in old age. Either way, the universality of death is sure, and, although certain deaths are caused or delayed by the consequences of people's actions, most seem to be inexplicable. Death is the result of sin, resurrection is the hope of the redeemed.







We agree on this.

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steve
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:10 pm

Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world (John 12.31)
Satan has the power of death (Heb 2)
Paul said Satan is the god of this age (2nd Cor 4.4)
In Luke 4 and Matt 4 , Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, Jesus often called Satan a liar but not here.
God allowed Jesus to be tested by a worthy opponent , if Satan were not powerful the tempting of Jesus would mean little.
The Word of Faith clearly exalts Satan. Satan rules those who allow him to rule them ("the world," in Jesus' parlance in John—meaning the sum total of people who are hostile toward God), and also he is the god of those who esteem him and worship him. The only time it says that Satan had the power of death, it also says that Jesus "reduced him to inactivity" (the meaning of katargeo in Hebrews 2:14). I do not see why Satan could be called a "worthy opponent" of Jesus. This suggests a degree of parity between the two. It exalts Satan to nearly the level of Jesus, if not above Him. The demons were absolutely terrified in the presence of Jesus. I do not know why any group of Christians would wish to exalt Satan and reduce the clear sovereignty of God and Christ over Satan.

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