Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon
steve7150
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:09 am

[color=#FF00FF]I do not see why Satan could be called a "worthy opponent" of Jesus. This suggests a degree of parity between the two. It exalts Satan to nearly the level of Jesus, if not above Him. The demons were absolutely terrified in the presence of Jesus. I do not know why any group of Christians would wish to exalt Satan and reduce the clear sovereignty of God and Christ over Satan.[/color]






I did'nt exalt Satan , i quoted what Jesus and Paul said about him and as you acknowledged he rules over "the world" which is the great majority of folks in this world. As to whether he was a worthy opponent for Jesus or not, the Holy Spirit lead Jesus to him for testing before Jesus could start his ministry. I take from that episode that Jesus was seriously tested which to me means he was a worthy opponent. Not worthy in the sense of honor but power. As Christians we can resist the devil but unsaved folks can't so Satan still deceives most people in the world. If you claim that this is exalting Satan then we just disagree on this. BTW i also did'nt diminish God, i called God omniscient and omnipotent but he honors mans choice as to who to follow. As you know Adam was not deceived, he knew. Most people in this world know also but they choose not to follow God.

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Michelle
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by Michelle » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:40 am

Uh, Steve7150, do you realize that in the same paragraph you said that Satan still deceives most people in the world and that most people in the world, like Adam, are not deceived but know, yet choose not to follow God?

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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:39 am

Uh, Steve7150, do you realize that in the same paragraph you said that Satan still deceives most people in the world and that most people in the world, like Adam, are not deceived but know, yet choose not to follow God?






Yes i did Michelle as before i posted i reread my post and caught it but i thought about it and decided it's a combination of both. By rejecting God and Christ unbelievers give Satan a foothold in their mind and heart. Adam however was not deceived if i recall correctly he "harkened to the voice of his wife" and rejected God.

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steve
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:50 pm

I see nothing in scripture that exalts Satan's power. Word of Faith does that. The scripture indicates that the devil's primary work is deception. This deception has many tentacles, including temptation to do what is wrong, condemnation, doubt, fear, etc. I don't see any suggestion that Satan was a worthy opponent to Jesus. Satan was just the best there was for the job, but he proved himself to be utterly impotent and unequal to the situation. He accomplished nothing at all against Jesus. Jesus could later say of Satan, "He has nothing in me."

That Satan rules over everyone foolish enough to allow him to do so is not an indication of his power but of his persuasiveness. To call him the "god" of this world does not attribute any power to him at all, any more than to call Baal and Molech the "gods" of the Canaanites attributes any kind of power to those carved images. The "ruler of this world" rules over those who allow him to do so (sometimes collectively referred to as "the world", in John), but our God rules over the world He has made. Our God determines the ultimate outcome of history. He is the one whose will is done in the life of the righteous ones who fear Him. These things are declared throughout scripture. A few verses acknowledging that He has delegated a few chores to Satan do not modify the contours of biblical teaching about the overwhelming sovereignty of God over nations, over nature, over history, over rulers, and over Satan himself.

Several statements have been made above about it being contrary to the character of God to destroy the righteous. This becomes an argument against taking the theology of the Book of Job seriously. The Word of Faith preachers call themselves "Word People"—despite their looking for every excuse imaginable to hide from the plain teachings of the Word in this book. How much more admirable it would be for them to allow the whole revelation of the Word of God shape their theology. If they could do so, they might be surprised to find the total harmony that exists between the theology of Job and that of the Psalms, Isaiah, Jesus, James, Hebrews, 2 Corinthians, Romans, 1 Thessalonians and Revelation (to name only a few of the books that directly declare the same things that Job does about suffering).

The theology of Job does not teach that God destroyed Job—nor does it teach that Satan destroyed him. It teaches that Job was indestructible—like gold. He was merely tested. That is why God allowed Satan to afflict Him. To say that Satan was enabled to get at Job because of Job's fear, or lack of faith, is to make God a liar (who declared otherwise in the opening chapters) and to strive to shoe-horn an unfriendly text into an artificial theological system.

Word of Faith is a fear-based system that arises from being overly impressed with the devil's power—and overly concerned about physical well-being, as opposed to spiritual benefits (2 Cor.4:16-18). These convictions play very nicely into Satan's designs, since they persuade the believer that it is Satan with whom we have to do, not God. It suggests that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of Satan, not the hands of God.

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TK
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by TK » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:53 pm

Just so everyone is clear-- my initial post on this matter has nothing to do with "Word of Faith" theology- although I have found Steve's explanation of this interesting. I guess I have some knowledge of WOF teachings (I listened to Steve's lectures on it) and I can certainly say I am not a fan of that theology.

My original post stemmed from the fact that I had just read the first couple of chapters of Job again recently and as usual, it made me queasy.

I understand that God is sovereign and all that. I understand that he is merciful and just, and loving beyond compare.

But if the first couple of chapters of Job are historical fact (and not poetic device), no one has really yet explained why God allowed satan to bait him into doing what he did to Job. Like Steve said, Job was not destroyed in the end, but his children were, as well as the servants and shepherds in his employ. Does God kill person X to test person Y? I would LIKE to say that this would go against God's character, but if this in keeping with the character of God, then as I said before, this is just something I have to grin and bear.

I remember when my uncle was killed in a tragic car accident, my grandmother, who was a very devout Christian, saying in her grief that God took her son because of something she had been praying (although I cannot remember the exact details of what her prayer had been). At the time, I felt she was wrong, and I guess I still do, because I don't WANT to believe that God would take someone's life in order to teach someone else a lesson. Oswald Chambers says something similar ("There are many such beliefs to be got rid of, e.g., that God removes a child because the mother loves him too much - a devil's lie! and a travesty of the true nature of God.")

Anyways, I have appreciated all the input and discussion, but perhaps, as I expected all along, there just isn't a very satisfactory answer.

TK

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steve
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:38 pm

Though Job came out ahead in the end, the events in the Book of Job were not enacted for Job's sake, but (like everything else that Christians can approve of) for the glory of God (Why do Christians keep forgetting this?).

I see no conflict between God's revealed character and His allowing people to die in whatever circumstances He may feel will bring the most glory to Himself. Everyone will die, and everyone deserves to die. It is God who has the right to decide when and where to carry out the sentence, in the case of each person. It is always desirable that He should choose a time and circumstance for that event that will bring Him the most glory—as in the case of Jesus:

“Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.” (John 12:27-28),

...and Peter:

This [Jesus] spoke, signifying by what death [Peter] would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.” (John 21:19)

...and every Christian who suffers:

If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. (1 Peter 4:14).

I am sure that this would be our dominant desire, wouldn''t it?—that God be glorified in our lives and in our deaths! So why would it ever cross our minds to question His goodness in doing so?

If someone should object that the children in question may not have shared this eagerness to glorify God rather than to live, I would respond that this does not reduce by one iota God's prerogatives in the matter. Humanism, rather than theism places the prerogatives of people above those of God.

My wife died at age 25, and brought great glory to God as a result—several people were saved, backsliders returned to Christ, many Christians were inspired, and my own ministry was unaccountably advanced. Had I been consulted in advance, I would have chosen to keep her around, but I have never considered that it was my prerogative (nor hers) to decide how or when she should die. I feel the same way about my own death, and that of my children. I hope everyone here feels the same way. Does anyone really wish to have their earthly sojourn prolonged, if by their premature deaths they might bring more glory to God?

Take Job's children: Their deaths (as a part of the whole fabric of Job's trials) have resulted in God's being glorified in the life of their father, as an inspiration to millions of people, a humiliation to Satan, and even occasioning the writing of a book of the Bible (how many people have that kind of privilege?)! Had they lived out normal lives, do you think any of them would have brought as much glory to God (God did not seem to think so)—or would even have made any spiritual impact at all upon their generation or ours?

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Homer
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:45 pm

Hi TK,

You wrote:
But if the first couple of chapters of Job are historical fact (and not poetic device), no one has really yet explained why God allowed satan to bait him into doing what he did to Job.
You can count me in regarding the belief that the story of Job is historical fact. Having said that, I do not believe the truth taught in the book depends on the story being factual.

Jesus used many parables to tell us true things. The parable of the prodigal son teaches us something true about God, whether it is based in fact (something that happened) or not. Likewise the book of Job teaches us truth about God, Satan, and suffering.

Blessings, Homer

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RickC
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by RickC » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:57 pm

Greetings TK, all -

I've been following this discussion & found a very interesting link -
Ancient Hebrew Poetry: Introduction to the Book of Job -
(by John Hobbins - click the pdf for the full article).

Excerpts -
"The structure of the book of Job is relatively straightforward. A prologue introduces the book’s readers to Job and describes decisions made in a parallel universe, that of a celestial court in which Yahweh, the head of the pantheon according to Israelite belief, holds ultimate power (chs. 1-2). The heart of the book consists of a series of dialogue cycles between Job and three friends in which Job appeals to Yahweh for vindication (chs. 3-31), followed by responses by Yahweh to Job’s appeals and a brief response by Job (chs. 38-41; 42:1-6). Speeches by a young interloper, Elihu, serve as a kind of intermezzo before Yahweh’s responses to Job (chs. 32-37). An epilogue ties up all the loose ends of the book (42:7-17).

"When Job charges God with all manner of inappropriate behavior, Job’s friends defend God from Job’s charges by maligning Job. Job must have done something to deserve his fate.
Job is incensed by his friends’ accusations. So malicious are their words that Job ends up contradicting the God-accusing thrust of his early speeches (through ch. 24), and insists instead on God’s righteousness and wisdom. Given his friends’ accusations, he needs God to be a righteous Judge; otherwise, his friends will not be condemned and he will not be justified. Job refers his case to God (chs. 26-31)....

"Now the plot thickens. God acquits Job and vindicates Job before his friends. Job was right to defend himself before God. Job was guilty of putting God in the wrong in order to put himself in the right, the point of God’s reproof of Job before acquitting him (40:8). But Job’s forthrightness before God is ultimately held to his credit (42:7)....

"God instructs Job to pray for his friends, because they, not he, risk God’s displeasure. Job, though he is furious with his friends, accedes to God’s request. Job thereby signals his recommitment to exemplary words and deeds, and God responds by giving Job twice what he had before. He goes on to live a life of legendary proportions and delight in his children's children (42:8-18).

"A theodicy is an attempt to justify the ways of God to men. The book of Job is an anti-theodicy. According to the book of Job, unjustifiable suffering takes place in the world. Those who claim otherwise “do not speak the truth about [God]” (42:8). Defense of man before God (anthropodicy), not defense of God (theodicy), is appropriate when suffering occurs. Job’s friends should have defended Job against God rather than God against Job.
The apologetics of Job’s friends do not do justice to the status of the sufferer in God’s sight. If the book of Job is taken as a model, the right response to undeserved suffering is to vindicate the sufferer even if that means calling God’s actions, or inaction, into question. The God of the book of Job vindicates Job. Before doing so, that same God puts an end to Job’s revolt against him.

"As Michael V. Fox points out, the book of Job is not skeptical literature (“Job the Pious,” ZAW 117 (2005) 351-366; 363). It is not about approaching the world with questions and no expectation of answers. But does the book of Job demand “unqualified faith in God’s goodness” (“Job the Pious,” 364)? A bolder claim is hard to imagine.

"In my view, the opposite is true. The book of Job justifies the sufferer’s lack of faith in God when darkness colors all. An attitude of faith is something a virtuous person characteristically has. It is also something a virtuous person may expect to lose in a time of despair.

"Furthermore, faith in God’s goodness, or more precisely, acquiescence God’s sovereignty, is not demanded of Job so much as given back to him in and through the fact that God replies to him out of the whirlwind. Job accepts God’s reply to him even if God does not answer all of his questions. His acceptance of God’s reply is a kind of faith, or more precisely, a form of obedience, without which Job could not have gone on living.

"The book of Job does not resolve the problem of evil so much as rehearse it within the context of a more encompassing set of reflections on the ways of God with humankind."


See also John Hobbins' Scriptural Index.
=============================================

This is about the best "brief explanation" of the book of Job I've seen.

I don't know to what extent he 'answers' or speaks to the personal issues that have been discussed in the thread (such as the loss of loved ones). And I don't want to side-track the thread from those issues or, otherwise, be disruptive.....Thanks.
Last edited by RickC on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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steve
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:54 pm

I just received an email concerning a young mother in her thirties, who has just learned that she has terminal lung cancer. The young woman's comment to her mother was:

"I feel God's peace. He is in control of my life...God knows when my time to die is. He knows what purposes He has for me in this life. When God decides to take me home, then it's my time. I just want to make the best out of each day that He gives me. If He decides to heal me, then my life is dedicated to Him and fulfilling whatever His will is for me."

This is what I woud expect to be the attitude of any true Christian—unless she had become convinced of the Word of Faith teaching. The latter would rob her of peace and of the ability to be happily resigned to the will of God. Statistics show that belief in the Word of Faith does nothing to prevent the deterioration of health nor does it prevent premature death in its adherents. Hobart Freeman's church, because of their Word of Faith convictions, was convinced that going to doctors was a lack of faith (a very logical belief, if the Word of Faith is correct in its other claims). This resulted in over 90 documented unnecessary deaths. The one thing the Word of Faith can confer upon its dying adherents is guilt for being sick and the deprivation of peace while dying. It cannot make them not die.

steve7150
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Re: Can Someone Explain Job to Me?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:51 pm

"I feel God's peace. He is in control of my life...God knows when my time to die is. He knows what purposes He has for me in this life. When God decides to take me home, then it's my time. I just want to make the best out of each day that He gives me. If He decides to heal me, then my life is dedicated to Him and fulfilling whatever His will is for me."









If i had any common sense i would keep quiet because i will get sliced and diced but nevertheless maybe i just have no common sense. This lady is blessed and is a true believer and BTW my mother as she was dying had a similar attitude and she was'nt Christian, she was jewish. In Judaism they look at Satan as God's servant and that God is the cause of everything which is why so many jews became atheists after the holocaust. I looked up Job in my Tanach and at the commentary and it mirrored Steve's explanation,
it's about God, it's about his divine plan, He is sovereign, if we are tortured by God, if our family is killed by God we must rejoice because we know that torture and killing by God will glorify God, it must be his plan.
Maybe i'm not a true Christian but i thought Jesus came to reveal God to us and Satan to us and i thought he called Satan the thief,destroyer,sinner from the beginning,murderer,liar and deceiver. Jesus,Paul and Peter certainly referenced Satan quite a bit if he is only the "servant of God".
If Satan is only a puppet of God , why warn us, why even bother with him after all Satan is little more then a flea.
If God wants to torture us, apparently we should rejoice because it's God's will. If God makes us sick we should'nt go to doctors because we are fighting God's will. If God kills our family we should be grateful. That's what Calvinists say and that's what Steve said.
In Calvinism everything is attributable to God and they make God's sovereignty the central tenet of their system even more so then the atonement and of course the implication is if you question "God's sovereignty" you may not be a true Christian.
One of the things that touched me so much when i became a believer was how much God loved us that he sacrificed his Son for us while we were yet sinners. I already knew how God was revealed in the OT, i never knew a God the way Jesus revealed him and i for one can not reconcile Jesus the exact image of God with what God supposedly did to Job a blameless man. He kills Job's family, He tortures Job and it's true that Job in the end was rewarded for his faith, yet it was God's personal visit with Job that really turned Job around. God never explained anything to Job, God could have simply said "all this was for my glory" but he did'nt so we assume it's for his glory.
All the earmarks of what happened to Job is exactly what Satan is described as doing in the NT, exactly. Torture,killing,persecution and deception are all attributed to Satan in the NT yet we read Job as if the NT does'nt exist. Perhaps i will be labeled by Steve as a WOF follower since he seems to leave no room for anything other then believing God tortured a blameless man and murdered his family for God's glory or if you think otherwise you simply must be a WOF follower. Either it's black or white.

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