Lutheranism?

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Jeff
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Lutheranism?

Post by Jeff » Sat May 21, 2011 1:25 pm

I'm pretty interested in all the different denominations and their beliefs and the differences between them all. It might just be me, but Lutheranism is very confusing. Lutheranism sounds alot like Calvinism in terms of predestination and depravity and alot like evangelicalism in terms of salvation through faith alone. But then at the same time, it teaches that water baptism and the sacraments are necessary for salvation. The little I've read of St. Augustine, he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth too so to speak - salvation is through grace alone through predestination, yet baptism and the sacraments are necessary for salvation. Besides what seems like contradictions (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), is it fair to say that Lutheranism most closely represents the catholicism of St. Augustine?

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Homer
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by Homer » Sat May 21, 2011 2:54 pm

Jeff,

I would guess the Lutheran view of baptism would be similar to that of Karl Barth, who believed it blasphemous to rebaptize someone who was baptized as an infant. After all, in Barth's view, it was God who had baptized them, so, though necessary, it was still by grace.

steve7150
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by steve7150 » Sun May 22, 2011 6:13 pm

The only thing i know about Lutheranism is i've heard it called Catholic light. I think Augustine believed in pre-destination perhaps from his days of being a follower of Mani who believed in fate but very literally.

Jeff
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by Jeff » Sun May 22, 2011 8:00 pm

I can see that Steve. Yes Augustine came from a gnostic sect that believed in determinism, but the early writings I have read of Augustine he sounded like any of the other church fathers before him, he believed in man's free will. Later he hardened his stance on predestination, even "recanting" his earlier belief in man's free will.

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Paidion
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by Paidion » Sun May 22, 2011 11:49 pm

Another interesting fact about the Manichee sect which Augustine had been with, was that they believed that there is an eternal struggle between the forces of good and the forces of evil. One can see how this ties in with Augustine's doctrine of eternal conscious punishment of the lost. The lost would continue in their defiance of God forever --- thus the eternal struggle.
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FM483
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by FM483 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:07 pm

I read the various comments about Lutheranism and wanted to post a comment. I have read most of Luther's works and theLutheran Confessions. Martin Luther and his associates never considered themselves anything but catholic in their faith. They never wished to begin any "denomination" but simply wished to purge the one true church of unscriptural beliefs and practices which had crept into the church over the centuries. Luther considered himself too "catholic" to continue to turn a blind eye towards all the abuses, such as indulgences and works righteousness. When Luther first read St Paul's letter to the church at Rome(Romans), he was astounded by quote of the prophet Habakkuk:
Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

Luther was always concerned with how he was viewed by God and never had the peace and assurance of his election. This one verse began the wheels turning in Luther's mind and the Reformation was largely a result. The question remains to this day: is a man saved by grace through faith alone? Or does a man have to respond to God in some fashion through his works in order tomerit salvation? Is salvation 100% gift or not?A carefulexamination of the landscape of the various denominations would show that most denominations are still Roman Catholic in their theology. Sure,they may not have the robes, candles, and vestments, yet their basic theology is still largely works righteousness.

The reason Lutheran theology may appear confusing to some is because Lutheranaism will not speak on matters where God does not reveal Himself. Also, Lutheranism clearly expounds the fact that some concepts appear difficult to comprehend with human reason and are paradoxical. For example, using St Paul's confession in Romans 7 and 8 we see that this sideof the resurrection believers are simultaneously saint and sinner.

Frank

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darinhouston
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by darinhouston » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:13 pm

FM483 wrote:The reason Lutheran theology may appear confusing to some is because Lutheranaism will not speak on matters where God does not reveal Himself.
I guess if that were true, I would be a Lutheran. Did you happen to read the Catechism?

FM483
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by FM483 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:02 pm

This is a response to Darin: I mentioned that I have read the Book Of Concord, commonly referred to as the Lutheran Confessions. Are you familiar with the writings contained within this book? If you were, you wouldrealize that both the Small and Large Catechisms of Luther are part of the Book Of Concord. If you read the Small Catechism, as an example, you would see bible references for every doctrinal matter contained within. I assume you disagree based on your comment?

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darinhouston
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by darinhouston » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:38 am

FM483 wrote:This is a response to Darin: I mentioned that I have read the Book Of Concord, commonly referred to as the Lutheran Confessions. Are you familiar with the writings contained within this book? If you were, you wouldrealize that both the Small and Large Catechisms of Luther are part of the Book Of Concord. If you read the Small Catechism, as an example, you would see bible references for every doctrinal matter contained within. I assume you disagree based on your comment?
I'm not familiar with the Book of Concord, but have read both Catechisms. Citation of verses does not equate to showing how a scripture teaches the doctrine in question. Far too often, if you look them up, you're left scratching your head why they were cited, much less how they would answer other scripture not cited.

FM483
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Re: Lutheranism?

Post by FM483 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:02 am

To Darin: Your last post questioned Luther's catechisms and whether the Scripture verses contained in them addressed the subject matter?If you could be more specific, perhaps we could dialogue? I find it amazing how the vast majority of "Protestant" denominations have no idea of their roots or origins. Most denominations today are Arminian in their theology, dating back to Jacob Arminius, who was lasgely rejected by the church as unscriptural. Lutheranism is monergistic in it's theology, while most denominations are synergistic. Lutherans seeGod in control at all times, despite how things appear. To one extent or the other, non-Lutheran denominations have abandoned their Reformation roots of salvation by grace through faith alone(Ephesians 2:8-9) and have wandered back philosophically to synergistic Roman Catholicism. A good example would be the Saddleback Church minister Rick Warren, author of the book "The Purpose Driven Life". Warren emphasizes that this life is a trial for eternity and to the extent people are successful handling money and other gifts given to them by God in this life determines their position in the next. This is pure medieval Roman Catholic nonsense encountered by Luther in the 16th century.
Last edited by FM483 on Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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