Church of Christ

For the discussion of the distinctives of the various mainstream Christian denominations
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Homer
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Re: Church of Christ

Post by Homer » Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:08 am

Regarding the Church of Christ, the Campbells, and LDS I have posted a new thread in the LDS category.

SamIam
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Re: Church of Christ

Post by SamIam » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:19 am

Homer,
I especially have never forgotten the story about the missionary to the Indians in upstate New York.
You will have to inform me on this bit of history.

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Homer
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Re: Church of Christ

Post by Homer » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:33 am

SamIam,

Here is the story from Knofel Staton's paraphrase of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address:
We conclude with an abstract from the Boston Anthology which gives us a classic example of the negative results that can come out of our divisions. This example also illustrates how the world watches us.

In 1805, a missionary from Massachusetts named Mr. Cram wanted to evangelize the Seneca Indians. He sent them his proposal for their approval. Here is what he said:

I am come brethren to enlighten your minds and to instruct you how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his will, and to preach to you the Gospel of his son Jesus Christ. There is one way to serve God, and if you do not embrace the right way, you cannot be happy hereafter.

The principal chiefs and warriors of the six nations met in council at Buffalo Creek in New York State to consider this proposal. Here is their reply to Missionary Cram:

Brother, we understand that your religion is written in a book. You say that there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there be but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree as you can all read the book? Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told your religion was given to your forefathers; we, also have a religion which was given to our forefathers; it teaches us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love one another, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion. We are told you have been preaching to the white people in this place. Those people are our neighbors, we are acquainted with them. We will wait a little to see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we will then consider again what you have said.
It must be 25 years or more since I read it. Not easy to forget.

God Bless, Homer

SamIam
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Re: Church of Christ

Post by SamIam » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:19 pm

Homer,

The proof is always in the pudding, isn't it ?

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selah
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Re: Church of Christ

Post by selah » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:06 pm

Homer wrote:SamIam,

Here is the story from Knofel Staton's paraphrase of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address:
We conclude with an abstract from the Boston Anthology which gives us a classic example of the negative results that can come out of our divisions. This example also illustrates how the world watches us.

In 1805, a missionary from Massachusetts named Mr. Cram wanted to evangelize the Seneca Indians. He sent them his proposal for their approval. Here is what he said:

I am come brethren to enlighten your minds and to instruct you how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his will, and to preach to you the Gospel of his son Jesus Christ. There is one way to serve God, and if you do not embrace the right way, you cannot be happy hereafter.

The principal chiefs and warriors of the six nations met in council at Buffalo Creek in New York State to consider this proposal. Here is their reply to Missionary Cram:

Brother, we understand that your religion is written in a book. You say that there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there be but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree as you can all read the book? Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told your religion was given to your forefathers; we, also have a religion which was given to our forefathers; it teaches us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love one another, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion. We are told you have been preaching to the white people in this place. Those people are our neighbors, we are acquainted with them. We will wait a little to see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we will then consider again what you have said.
It must be 25 years or more since I read it. Not easy to forget.

God Bless, Homer
Thanks for posting this story!
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

JayPC
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Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Church of Christ

Post by JayPC » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:26 am

The original post had to do with why churches of Christ take a hard line when it comes to instruments in worship. I am a minister in the church of Christ and I would like to point out that the history of Christendom shows that only recently has instrumental music become the norm. From the earliest church fathers to Charles Spurgeon and most in-between have rejected instruments in worship.
EUSEBIUS "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."
(commentary on Psalms 91:2-3)

CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?"
(John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

(Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery."
(Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

http://www.kc-cofc.org/Articles/QuotesMIMInWorship.pdf



Even today there are others who reject instruments in worship. The Reformed Presbyterian church of North America
“In keeping with the New Testament Church’s directive for heart worship, we sing without the aid of musical instruments.”
. http://reformedpresbyterian.org/index.p ... &Itemid=32

“Old Light on New Worship” is a book that was put out recently from a reformed Baptist minister (John Price) showing how instruments are inappropriate in worship and he gives a very large section dealing with historical quotes as well as biblical information.
http://www.amazon.com/Old-Light-New-Wor ... 770&sr=8-1

So to answer the question we don’t use instruments because we are not told to use any. We don’t know which instruments would be acceptable because God hasn’t told us. We don’t know who should play them because God hasn’t told us. We don’t know when they should be played because God hasn’t told us. Now God did tell the Israelites under the Old Covenant who, what, and when to play. There are other reasons but the fact is I only want to worship God the way he has commanded me to worship him.



/

Jill
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Post by Jill » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:23 pm

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Last edited by Jill on Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gregb
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Re: Church of Christ

Post by gregb » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:28 pm

I must say that I found it interesting to here that my friend who went to a church of Christ preacher program told me that I was lost because my church has musical instruments yet there was actual sin going on in the non-instrumental church that he attended. This idea that one must "obey the silence of scriptures" is nonsense.
Obeying the silence of scripture
"Where the Bible speaks, we speak, where the Bible is silent, we're silent."
This is to say that we are to obey the examples of the first century church. The mainliners also say that concerning musical instruments, that we are to obey the commands in the New Testament which says that we are to not have musical instruments in worship services.
I am only going to deal with the New Testament argument that they maintain. These "commands" are :
Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."
&
Ephesians 5:19 "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,"

I have to admit that Before I had every heard this argument against musical instruments, I had read these verses many many times, and I never thought of anything along the lines of these scriptures saying that instruments in worship is a sin. Even when I heard this argument, it didn't make sense.
Well, anyway. these verses are apparently the commands. The examples of the New Testament church are the absence of instruments in the New Testament. These N.T. are just part of the argument. There are other scriptures from the O.T. that build their case as well.
Conclusion: If this hermeneutic is correct, then it should be consistent.
Is there anything else in the New Testament that has a command and an example?
Yes.
There is a command that tells us what we should physically do with our body as we pray. Matt 6:5 tells us to pray privately, but it doesn't tell us what to physically do.
1 Timothy 2:8, says, "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing."
This scripture is obviously more of a command than the scriptures referenced above, yet this command is not obeyed in any church that I know of. "Men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer"... I can confidently say that you will not see this in a church of Christ yet it fits the hermeneutic given by the churches of Christ.

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