The recent discussion on prayer to the saints (under "Roman Catholicism") reminded me of this thread that we had last year...went back and looked at this and saw that there were some issues still 'hanging' out there...
The great American bishop, Fulton Sheen, who, back in the 1950's, had a prime-time TV show in the United States to teach the Catholic Faith (think of that! Regardless of whether one is Catholic or not, the fact that ANY religious figure back in the 1950's had a PRIME-TIME TV show demonstrates how VERY different our culture is TODAY! Can you IMAGINE any pastor or bishop from ANY denomination trying to do the same today!? I digress...) As I was saying, Fulton Sheen once said, "There are not 100 persons in the United States who hate the Catholic Faith; there are, however, millions of persons who hate what they have MISTAKENLY believed to be the Catholic Faith!" Well, perhaps the good bishop was exaggerating a little bit; but, the point he is making is well-taken (by me, anyway), namely, that there is a *LOT* of ignorance, even, today, among Catholics themselves, about what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches and what Catholics ACTUALLY believe. Without intending any offense to the intelligence and education of anyone who was currently participating in this thread last year, looking back at it now, I am reminded of Fulton' Sheen's statement: for, this thread is filled with common, but, still, wrong, misconceptions and mistakes about Catholic teaching and practice.
First, with regard to the last statement about the Catholic Church's teaching on the Immaculate Conception denigrating against the Incarnation: as the Catholic Church just celebrated the feast of Mary's Immaculate Conception yesterday (Dec. 8), I thought I would say a word on this. First, any concern I, personally, have heard from a non-Catholic about the teaching about Mary's Immaculate Conception was dealt with long ago by Catholic theologians (and, by "long ago", I mean CENTURIES ago, i.e., in the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th centuries). In the development and formulation of this dogma, Catholic theologians, being well aware of the teaching of the Scriptures on the sinfulness of man and on the unique role that Christ, the sole Redeemer, plays in redeeming man, all men (including Mary), had to grapple with the question, "How can Mary be Immaculately Conceived if she was also, at the same time, one of the redeemed (as she herself declared when she praised God as being her very own Savior)?" Without going into all that took place over several centuries to work that out (Catholic theologians, back then, basically bringing up the same objections that I hear from non-Catholics TODAY-- showing that the Catholic theologians who helped towards the development of this doctrine were not stupid and, again without intending any offense, the bringing up of the exact questions on this matter by non-Catholics today is a form of "re-inventing the wheel", for Catholic theologians have, like I said, long ago considered all of these potential objections to the teaching that Mary was conceived without any sin, personal or original), the Catholic Church's teaching on the Immaculate Conception is simply this (the following quote is the exact definition given by Pope Pius IX in 1854 to define what the Catholic Church believes about the Immaculate Conception of Mary):
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
Now, a few comments on this. First, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary, by a
special privilege, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, i.e., she was conceived
with grace (and, earlier on, the Pope teaches that the
reason for this special privilege was that Mary was called by God to be the mother of Christ, Who is God; thus, to make her a
fitting mother for Christ, it was fitting that she herself be conceived in grace and, thus, preserved from all sin, including original, which is to say simply that she was conceived with God's grace; this privilege of hers, like all her privileges, given to her solely due to her special relationship to Christ and the dignity that belongs to CHRIST; all "Marian dogmas" of the Catholic Church have, at heart, a concern to PRESERVE, not take away from, the infinite dignity of CHRIST, the God-Man). The Pope is also stating that this doctrine is
revealed by God (if you are asking, "Where is it revealed by God?", the Pope gives a summary of the Scriptural teachings on this matter here:
http://www.piustheninth.com/apps/app12.htm)
Secondly, and very importantly, in response to the concern that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception takes away from the Incarnation (again, a concern that Catholic theologians themselves had prior to the formal definition of the dogma), the Pope, Pius IX, teaches that this special privilege of Mary to have been conceived in God's grace (unlike the rest of us who are conceived without God's grace), was given to her-- very important to note!-- "in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race". Let me repeat that, as it is of paramount importance in order to understand properly this teaching (and to see how this teaching does NOT take away from the importance of the Incarnation but, actually, manifests the great POWER of the Incarnation of Christ, the Son of God): the Pope taught that Mary's special privilege of being conceived in grace, i.e., immaculately conceived, was given to her "in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race."
This is so important to understand, for, like I said, it not only preserves the indescribable importance of the Incarnation, but, even more than that, it EMPHASIZES the Incarnation's importance EVEN MORE, and this in at least two ways. First, this teaching shows that Mary being Immaculately Conceived was a privilege given to her by the INCARNATE Christ; for, the Pope, Pius IX, taught that God granted this privilege to Mary because of the
merits of Christ (the Savior of the human race, as the Pope reminds us here in this very definition of Mary's Immaculate Conception). In other words, God, foreseeing the merits of Christ, in His human nature, which were won for the human race on Calvary, takes those merits, which were won, in time, after Mary's Conception but which, by God's power, can be applied back in time to Mary's Conception, and God does just that-- He applies the merits of the Incarnate Christ back in time to Mary at her Conception, God, again, having the power to do so for He is eternal, and outside of time. Thus it is that the POWER of the Incarnation is preserved in this dogma.
More than that, the
dignity of the Incarnate Christ is
emphasized in this teaching for, again, according to Catholic theology, the
reason why God granted this privilege to Mary was
precisely because of the infinite dignity of
Christ, the God-Man, the Incarnate God. On this point, I will quote Pope Pius IX again, from the same document, as he wrote: "It was quite fitting that, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness." Thus it is that, in defining the Immaculate Conception, the Pope's concern was to HIGHLIGHT, not take away from, the importance of the Incarnation. The Immaculate Conception of Mary was fitting PRECISELY because of the infinite dignity that is due to the Incarnate Christ: only a mother who had NO contact with ANY sin whatsoever (whether personal or original) could be a FITTING Mother for such as One as the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the race.
I hope that makes sense. At the very least, I hope it spurs some on to consider and study more deeply the teachings of the Catholic Church (on this, and other, matters) for, at one point or another in the long history of the Catholic Church, Catholic theologians have PROBABLY considered, and responded to, any objections or concerns you may have with respect to Catholic teaching.
Lastly, and quickly, with regard to the oft-repeated charge of "Mariolotry" (so often repeated, it has become, quite frankly, rather tedious to hear), I will simply repeat Christ's words, "Do not judge by appearance, but judge with just judgment," and the Holy Spirit's words, "Man sees the appearance, but the Lord looks into the heart." That is, to commit the sin of idolatry, one must worship a creature as if he/she were God, which is to say that one believes, IN ONE'S MIND and HEART, that such a one is equal to, or superior to, the true God. This NO true Catholic does (for, if one WERE to do that, one would, by the very act of doing that, CEASE to be a true Catholic, for a true Catholic worships only one God, the Triune God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and there is absolutely NO confusion in the minds and hearts of true Catholics on this point, and it is, again, quite offensive that those who are, currently, OUTSIDE of this family of the Catholic Church and, thus, obviously ignorant of the authentic teachings of the Church, not to mention being ignorant of what is going on in the minds and hearts of Catholics when they pray, feel the authority to pass judgment on Catholics in their love and honor offered to the Mother of Christ, contrary to the Lord's very serious command to "Judge not"!) So, whatever a Catholic may do EXTERNALLY to show love of Mary-- eg., praying vocal prayers to her, kissing her statues, etc.-- is done with the INTERNAL recognition that she is NOT God (the only God being, again, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and EVERY "cradle Catholic" knows this fundamental truth from pretty much before he/she learns how to walk!), but, rather, she is the *creature* most blessed by God, having been filled with God's grace for the sake of being the Mother of the Son of God (He Who IS God). Religion, we must remember, involves BOTH external acts AND internal acts-- but, it's PRIMARY acts are *internal*. I suggest that those who persist in accusing Catholics of so-called "Mariolotry", DESPITE the repeated explanations by CATHOLICS themselves that they do NOT believe Mary is God (and, thus, the honor we offer to her is NOT the same honor we would give to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but, rather, is far, far, FAR beneath that honor due to the Triune God alone), as evidenced by these repeatedly expressed accusations against Catholics, may be falling into the error (and, perhaps, sin) of the Pharisees, who, though being men themselves, and not God, felt it their duty to judge the hearts of men, despite Christ telling us to not judge the hearts of others. Further, those who accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary as God based on some external actions may be, like the Pharisees, reducing religion to mere EXTERNAL practices, while failing to recognize the primacy of the INTERIOR acts of the mind and heart (in knowing and loving God, and all things/persons related to God) in the practice of the virtue of religion. If those outside the Catholic Church would simply, in charity, not to mention justice, BELIEVE Catholics when we say that we, from the day we were taught the Catholic Faith (sometimes from our very mothers' wombs!), are taught that there is only One God (Father, Son, and Spirit), and that Mary, the Mother of the Son of God, is the most exalted creature (and Daughter) of God, but, nevertheless, is still a creature, infinitely below God, and that we, ALL true Catholics, have these fundamental truths FIRMLY planted in our minds and hearts WHENEVER we render external honor of ANY kind to the Virgin Mary, if, I say, those outside the Catholic Church simply keep these things in mind when observing Catholics rendering honor to the Mother of Christ, He Who is God, then such non-Catholics will not fall into the error, condemned by Christ Himself, of "condemning the guiltless", i.e., those Catholics who, without guilt, but, rather, with much merit in the eyes of God, render love and honor to His most beloved creature and daughter, indeed, the very Mother of His Son, the Immaculate Virgin Mary. Amen.
In Christ, the Savior of the World and Son of the Immaculate Virgin Mary,
BrotherAlan