Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

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Homer
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Homer » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:22 am

We can have a healthy debate about Roman Catholicism vs. Eastern Catholicism, but it is lunacy to think that at least one of them is not the Truth.
Jesus said "I am the truth...", why is it you say an institution is the truth? Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the Greek ekklesia, of which "church" is not an actual translation? Do you know it was deliberately not translated? The "church" is the sum total of the disciples of Jesus.

Jon
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Jon » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:31 pm

Homer wrote:
We can have a healthy debate about Roman Catholicism vs. Eastern Catholicism, but it is lunacy to think that at least one of them is not the Truth.
Jesus said "I am the truth...", why is it you say an institution is the truth? Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of the Greek ekklesia, of which "church" is not an actual translation? Do you know it was deliberately not translated? The "church" is the sum total of the disciples of Jesus.
Sorry I slightly misspoke. The Church is the keeper of the fullness of the Truth. It is an institution created by Jesus and given the grace to not be led astray from the Truth. It is not the Truth in and of itself, but is the keeper of the Truth through the direction of Jesus. It is more than the sum total of the disciples of Jesus.

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steve
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by steve » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:35 pm

The Church...is an institution created by Jesus and given the grace to not be led astray from the Truth.


I am not sure why you believe this, but, if it is true, then the Roman Catholic Church is not the church of which you speak, since it has not been providentially kept from straying from the truth.
It... is the keeper of the Truth through the direction of Jesus.


How do you know that Jesus is directing the institution to which you refer?

It is more than the sum total of the disciples of Jesus.
Why do you say this? How do you know this?

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Paidion
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Paidion » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:11 pm

We can have a healthy debate about Roman Catholicism vs. Eastern Catholicism, but it is lunacy to think that at least one of them is not the Truth.
Lunacy to think that at least one of them is NOT the truth? Unless at least one of them is NOT the truth, then BOTH of them are the truth. Is that what you believe?

But perhaps you meant, "Lunacy to think neither of them is the truth". If that's what you meant, I didn't make the claim that neither of them was the truth. I made the claim that "that it doesn't make sense for either branch to claim that it is the ONLY true church which has continued from its establishment by Christ to the present." I stand by that claim, since neither can show historically or in any other way, that their branch is the only True Church and that the other branch is not.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Jon
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Jon » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:19 am

You've avoided my question for a while now - do you think one of them is the Truth?

About the Roman Catholic Church, I don't know what to tell you except that you are the one who's wrong about them straying from the Truth. You have no more claim to say so than you think I do, except I have Church history on my side.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation. I'll pray for your conversion. God bless.

Jon
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Jon » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:43 am

steve wrote:
The Church...is an institution created by Jesus and given the grace to not be led astray from the Truth.


I am not sure why you believe this, but, if it is true, then the Roman Catholic Church is not the church of which you speak, since it has not been providentially kept from straying from the truth.
It... is the keeper of the Truth through the direction of Jesus.


How do you know that Jesus is directing the institution to which you refer?

It is more than the sum total of the disciples of Jesus.
Why do you say this? How do you know this?

Hi Steve,

I know we'll always disagree on this topic and I'll continue to pray for you. If many Catholic apologists cannot show you the error of your interpretation of Church history and the Bible, I am sure I won't convince you, but you will only be saved by prayer. You are very well versed in these topics but have forgotten, like many others, that you cannot interpret the Bible and Tradition on your own - it only leads down the wrong path. It is a sin of pride that the Devil loves to use to lead people away from the Church.

At your final judgement, you will be responsible for having led everyone who comes to this website and listens to your programs down the wrong path. It's a great responsibility to be the leader of souls to their final destination. Whether or not you convert before your judgement, I pray that God is merciful to you.

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Paidion
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Paidion » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:45 pm

Jon you wrote:You've avoided my question for a while now - do you think one of them is the Truth?
I haven't addressed you question because I don't see that the answer to your quesion is relevant to the point I was making.

I repeat my point once again:
It doesn't make sense for either branch to claim that it is the ONLY true church which has continued from its establishment by Christ to the present.
So far, you have said nothing which shows my point to be false.
Jon you also wrote:About the Roman Catholic Church, I don't know what to tell you except that you are the one who's wrong about them straying from the Truth. You have no more claim to say so than you think I do, except I have Church history on my side.
Please quote my having said that ANY church has strayed from the truth. So in what sense am I "wrong"? I am making one point only:
It doesn't make sense for either branch to claim that it is the ONLY true church which has continued from its establishment by Christ to the present.
When are you going to show me wrong by trying prove that the Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY true church which has continued from its establishment by Christ to the present? If you don't do so soon, then we shall have to assume that you are unable to do so.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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steve
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by steve » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:31 pm

Jon,

You wrote:
You...have forgotten, like many others, that you cannot interpret the Bible and Tradition on your own - it only leads down the wrong path. It is a sin of pride that the Devil loves to use to lead people away from the Church.
You don't seem to realize that you and I have both done exactly the same thing—namely, each of us has examined various religious options, examined the scriptures, and reached our own personal conclusions as to which system to embrace. It is clear that, in confronting the claims of Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestantism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventism, etc., you have concluded that the evidence supports the claims of the Roman Catholic Church, and I have concluded that the evidence does not support them. You have made your own independent decision, just as I have. You only call it the sin of pride on my part because I, by my personal interpretation of scripture and tradition, did not reach the same conclusion as you reached by your personal interpretation of scripture and tradition.

The difference between you and those who embrace other viewpoints is not that they have made an independent decision and you have not. You have done so just as much as has anyone else. That is why Catholic apologists appeal to the conscience and judgment of their listeners—they hope thereby to convince them to make a personal decision to embrace the Catholic interpretations of passages like Matthew 16:18; Luke 1:28; John 6:53; and John 20:23. You have personally decided to agree with their interpretation. I have personally decided to agree with another.

The phenomenon of making an independent decision as to which interpretation is correct is identical in your case and in mine. Jehovah's Witnesses have chosen to trust the Watchtower Society. Mormons trust Joseph Smith. You have chosen to believe Catholicism and I have decided to trust no one except God. Your decision is a result of your interpreting scriptures differently from the way others have interpreted them (a personal interpretive decision on your part). It would be disingenuous for you to pretend otherwise.

Does this mean that you, because you made this personal interpretative decision, are guilty of the sin of pride? Maybe, but not necessarily. People are commanded by scripture to be discerning, not simply trusting what any spiritual teacher says (1 John 4:1; 1 Thes.5:21; 1 Cor.14:29). We are commanded to be taught, ultimately, by God, not by any human (1 John 2:27). To follow such a practice is not pride, but obedience to God.
At your final judgement, you will be responsible for having led everyone who comes to this website and listens to your programs down the wrong path. It's a great responsibility to be the leader of souls to their final destination.
I appreciate this fact, and am ever mindful of it. That is why I always direct my listeners to take personal responsibility for their beliefs, and to only accept what God has said as necessarily true. I am confident that God will not find fault with such direction.

Whether or not you convert before your judgement, I pray that God is merciful to you.
Thank you. I don't think you need to worry on that score. According to Vatican II, I will only be judged for not being a Catholic if I reject Catholicism while knowing in my heart that it is the true faith. Since I do not know this, Vatican II says that I can be saved without being in your church.

Jon
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Jon » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:14 am

Paidion wrote:
When are you going to show me wrong by trying prove that the Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY true church which has continued from its establishment by Christ to the present? If you don't do so soon, then we shall have to assume that you are unable to do so.
For someone who claims to not want a debate, this certainly sounds like a debate ultimatum.

The reason my question matters is that it makes no sense to try and justify the Roman Catholic position with someone who believes neither Church is correct.

The Eastern and Roman Churches have been arguing about this much longer than you or I have been on this Earth. I hardly believe that you and I will work it out over a few sentences on a web blog.

You have done nothing to disprove that the Roman Church is the only true Church. I can only assume that you are unable to do so.

Paidon, I wish you well and will pray for you, but please take a stand and make your point. I have plainly told you where I stand, but I have no idea where you stand.

Jon
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Re: Catholics' View on Jesus and the Church

Post by Jon » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:34 am

steve wrote:
You don't seem to realize that you and I have both done exactly the same thing—namely, each of us has examined various religious options, examined the scriptures, and reached our own personal conclusions as to which system to embrace. It is clear that, in confronting the claims of Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestantism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventism, etc., you have concluded that the evidence supports the claims of the Roman Catholic Church, and I have concluded that the evidence does not support them. You have made your own independent decision, just as I have. You only call it the sin of pride on my part because I, by my personal interpretation of scripture and tradition, did not reach the same conclusion as you reached by your personal interpretation of scripture and tradition.

The difference between you and those who embrace other viewpoints is not that they have made an independent decision and you have not. You have done so just as much as has anyone else. That is why Catholic apologists appeal to the conscience and judgment of their listeners—they hope thereby to convince them to make a personal decision to embrace the Catholic interpretations of passages like Matthew 16:18; Luke 1:28; John 6:53; and John 20:23. You have personally decided to agree with their interpretation. I have personally decided to agree with another.

The phenomenon of making an independent decision as to which interpretation is correct is identical in your case and in mine. Jehovah's Witnesses have chosen to trust the Watchtower Society. Mormons trust Joseph Smith. You have chosen to believe Catholicism and I have decided to trust no one except God. Your decision is a result of your interpreting scriptures differently from the way others have interpreted them (a personal interpretive decision on your part). It would be disingenuous for you to pretend otherwise.

Does this mean that you, because you made this personal interpretative decision, are guilty of the sin of pride? Maybe, but not necessarily. People are commanded by scripture to be discerning, not simply trusting what any spiritual teacher says (1 John 4:1; 1 Thes.5:21; 1 Cor.14:29). We are commanded to be taught, ultimately, by God, not by any human (1 John 2:27). To follow such a practice is not pride, but obedience to God.
At your final judgement, you will be responsible for having led everyone who comes to this website and listens to your programs down the wrong path. It's a great responsibility to be the leader of souls to their final destination.
I appreciate this fact, and am ever mindful of it. That is why I always direct my listeners to take personal responsibility for their beliefs, and to only accept what God has said as necessarily true. I am confident that God will not find fault with such direction.

Whether or not you convert before your judgement, I pray that God is merciful to you.
Thank you. I don't think you need to worry on that score. According to Vatican II, I will only be judged for not being a Catholic if I reject Catholicism while knowing in my heart that it is the true faith. Since I do not know this, Vatican II says that I can be saved without being in your church.
Steve,

You're absolutely right, we all have to make an independent decision on what religious option to believe. This does not, however, mean that any of those options are just as acceptable and truthful.

You are right that I made a choice of Catholicism. It seems a reasonable choice because it is the only religion that has been continuously around since Jesus founded the Church and is the largest on the planet. It is through the grace of God and monks of the Catholic Church that you have the luxury of even reading the Bible today.

If you only trust in God, do you take at face value which books should be included in the Bible, or did you study it and come to your own conclusion about it and have your own list of approved books for the Bible?

The one big difference between us is that I recognize the fact that no single man can be his own theologian and get everything about God correct. If that were true then we would all believe the same thing and there wouldn't be different Christian viewpoints about Bible interpretation. The Catholic Church has something that no single individual has - a wealth of theological horsepower inspired by God to lead all individual men to the Truth.

I believe you have grossly misinterpreted Vatican II documents to justify your own non-Catholic salvation. Your description of the situation is not in accordance with Catholic thinking. You wouldn't be the first to misinterpret these documents. Did you come to this idea on your own or did you come to this conclusion after discussing with a Priest?

Whether or not you tell people to be personally responsible for their own choices, you are still partly responsible for it.

It may be difficult for you to ever change your viewpoint on any of this, so this will be my post. I came back after a long absence, and I see yet again that the only way to truly let people see the Truth is not to win them over with discussion but to pray that they be open to God's revelation of the Truth.

I pray that you take another objective look at where stand and see if it leads to the same place you are now.

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