Evolution is compatible with Christianity

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RND
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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by RND » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:29 pm

mattrose wrote:Starlight and time was also a big wall for me in continuing belief in the young earth perspective. But there is a book by a Dr. Russell Humphreys which is written as a humble but possible explanation. To make a long story short, it has to do with the expanding universe and the idea that gravity distorts time. He makes the case that the universe is very old while the earth is very young. It just depends on what clock you are going by. Our solar system, he claims, may have been the last part of the universe to pass beyond an 'event horizon' during the creation week. So while millions of years were happening for the stars, only day were happening from earth's vantage point.

I have read his short book 3 times. I don't claim to understand it completely, but I do think he makes a reasonable case that would explain the issue.
I'd like to read that. Is it online?
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mattrose
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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by mattrose » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:44 pm

You can LISTEN to him (less than 1 hour) here...

http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/a ... light-time

Here's a bunch of articles about Humphrey's theory

http://www.trueorigin.org/ca_rh_03.asp

A different theory hoping to explain the issue is here...

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/ar ... mology.pdf
Last edited by mattrose on Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RND
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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by RND » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:45 pm

Thanks for the links mattrose!
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AaronBDisney
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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by AaronBDisney » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:02 pm

TK wrote:Aaron wrote:
If what you mean is speed of light and the visibility of stars - I understand that. But why would we assume that God had to rely on the speed of light (which is alterable and never proven to have been a constant) to get light here?
Greh Koukl, a christian apologist that is also an OE creationist, discusses this problem in regard to things like supernovas, e.g:

1. an observed supernova is 10 million light years away.
2. We do not see supernova as it IS, but rather as it WAS, because of the distance light has to travel.
3. Astronomer concludes (based established science) that billions of years ago a star exploded to form this supernova now being observed.
4. If earth is in fact only 1000s of years old, then obviously no star existed billions of years ago to explode and go supernova.
5. ergo, if YE creationism is true, then there never really was a star that went supernova; rather God must have created the image (illusion) that we now see as a supernova.

that simply seems deceptive to me.

TK
That's a good thought, TK. I wouldn't argue that God gave us an illusion of a supernova just to deceive us. My contention is just that we are making an assumption when we assume that light travels at the same speed throughout space. I don't know, I just think the Bible makes it clear that all things were created in 6 days (ex 20:11) that includes the stars, sun and moon. It is interesting that all these were said to be created after the earth. If we imagine an earth being created after the sun, moon, and stars we are in opposition to what the Bible says.

I don't object to the idea that the Bible occasionally speaks figuratively, but I don't know why it would be said the sun, moon and stars were created on day 4 and earth on day 1 if that were not so. There are a lot of ideas about all sorts of different things that would urge us to disbelieve the clarity of scripture, but as Paul said "Let God's word be true but every man a liar".

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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by TK » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:20 pm

i hear you aaron, i really do. what you stated is exactly why i see this as a non-essential issue. i just cant get hung up about it, and if it turns out that someday i find out that the earth is only 15,000 years old and that astronomers were all dead wrong then that would be awesome.

at the same time, the Bible is not a science textbook. isnt it possible that moses wrote a figurative/poetic account of the creation? remember his audience- they weren't all that sophisticated. just as i would not be at all surprised that the literal account is true, i would not be surprised if it is not true.

i just have a really hard time believing that astronomers are THAT wrong. i could see getting it wrong if the issue were 20 billion years vs. 10 billion, but 10 billion vs 15,000--- that is a huge mistake. and i dont think they are intentionally misleading us- i honestly think that that is what they think the science shows.

TK

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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by AaronBDisney » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:50 pm

the Bible is not a science textbook. isnt it possible that moses wrote a figurative/poetic account of the creation? remember his audience- they weren't all that sophisticated. just as i would not be at all surprised that the literal account is true, i would not be surprised if it is not true.

i just have a really hard time believing that astronomers are THAT wrong. i could see getting it wrong if the issue were 20 billion years vs. 10 billion, but 10 billion vs 15,000--- that is a huge mistake. and i dont think they are intentionally misleading us- i honestly think that that is what they think the science shows.
No, the Bible isn't a science textbook, but it can't be incorrect when speaking about creation. Whatever you or I or anyone else may feel about what it means. One thing is sure, the Sun, Moon and Stars were said to be created on the 4th day and the earth on the first. The 4th day comes after the first day and almost every scientific opinion is that it is the other way around concerning what came along when. And it's not just a 3 day separation but billions of years.

It is hard to believe that astronomers are THAT wrong, but it's harder for me to believe that the Bible is THAT wrong. I agree though that this is not something that is so critical that it should be focused too heavily upon, unless the billions of years allow for the validity of evolution, then I think it's one of the most essential things we can argue. If evolution is true, God did not create man in His image, man evolved into His image. And when did God consider the man to be a man and not an apelike creature?

Also, isn't it odd that we would have the death of so many animals all those millions of years prior to Adam's sin since Adam's sin brought death into the world? I know that your position is that the earth is old and that life is relatively new, but those that believe in theistic evolution have to answer the question of why God called the earth 'very good' while Adam and Eve were standing on top of billions of years of death, disease and suffering. And how can it be said that Adam brought death into the world when it had been around for billions of years.

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mattrose
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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by mattrose » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:51 pm

I also highly doubt many/most of them are intentionally misleading. Where they make their mistakes, imo, is in their philosophies/ideologies that underlie their theories. Now, they are reluctant to mention the philosophical assumptions (b/c they are not exactly 'scientific), but this is not really dishonesty so much as it is a lack of disclosure. They don't mention them b/c they assume everyone agrees, not because they are trying to trick people. Many popular theories (like the Big Bang), are based on naturalistic philosophy. Naturalistic assumptions taint their conclusions (For better or worse).

And technically, TK, the difference b/w 20B and 10B is MORE THAN the difference b/w 10B and 10k, if only slightly :) But I understand your point is more than quantitative.

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TK
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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by TK » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:01 pm

matt wrote:
And technically, TK, the difference b/w 20B and 10B is MORE THAN the difference b/w 10B and 10k, if only slightly But I understand your point is more than quantitative.
wow- nice catch! math has never been my strong suit.

TK

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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:19 pm

AaronBDisney wrote: Also, isn't it odd that we would have the death of so many animals all those millions of years prior to Adam's sin since Adam's sin brought death into the world? I know that your position is that the earth is old and that life is relatively new, but those that believe in theistic evolution have to answer the question of why God called the earth 'very good' while Adam and Eve were standing on top of billions of years of death, disease and suffering. And how can it be said that Adam brought death into the world when it had been around for billions of years.
Two things - first, you are aware of the arguments that death here refers either to "spiritual death" are you not? second, you assume that God thinks physical death is a bad thing. His plan, which included even the death of Christ was, indeed, very good. Another argument is that God was referring to the actual garden rather than the world at large or even the general environs throughout eden when He said it was very good, and that much of the creation account is really about the preparation of this perfect garden and not all of creation. Personally, I'm leaning to some of the Framework Hypothesis arguments, but think they oversell some of the parallels they make to prove the point.

One thing to keep in mind is that where we lack clarity in some of the figurative positions doesn't require that the Hebrews would have likewise lacked clarity. They didn't see things as doctrinaire as we do and weren't slaves to clocks and calendars and scientific perfection of speech as we seem to be, getting hung up on what "day" means and the sort.

I think we can't get past trees sometimes because we spend so much time looking at the bark.

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Re: Evolution is compatible with Christianity

Post by AaronBDisney » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:33 pm

God was referring to the actual garden rather than the world at large or even the general environs throughout eden when He said it was very good, and that much of the creation account is really about the preparation of this perfect garden and not all of creation.


This is what is said at the end of Gen 1
Gen 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Everything that he had made. This is after He explained what He had made. Including the earth, sun, moon and stars. This is certainly not limited to the Garden of Eden. I'm not sure why you would assume that.

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