Roman Catholic and The Bible.

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darinhouston
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:50 pm

I certainly understand what you're saying, tom, and as I said "I'm patient;" but, could you start with the question about the continuity of doctrine in the areas we've pointed out? The questions you did answer were somewhat rhetorical, but I understand you may not have realized that.

tom
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by tom » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:37 pm

Steve, here's what I was referring to on my post;
1. The suggestion that Homer's question was answered (on this forum somewhere?);

On point #1: I must say that there has been no answer given to Homer's question that I could understand. As I recall, you said that you did not know how one would proceed in the Roman Catholic Church to resolve a conflict between yourself and a Catholic brother along the lines of Matthew 18. That means we still don't have an answer. The irony in this is that you have been criticizing Protestants on just this point: there is no obvious way (in your opinion) for non-Catholics to facilitate Matthew 18. Yet, according to you, there is apparently no obvious way for a Catholic (e.g., yourself) to follow the teaching in Matthew 18
Homer wrote:Considering the text:

Matthew 18:15-20 (New King James Version)

15. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18. “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19. “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I type slowly, perhaps that will help you catch what I write. :D Notice the text. No need for a church hierarchy to tell you what it says; trust me, this isn't rocket science. As you have noted, it is straight forward. Notice that he instructs us to go to the church. The word "church" is not a translation from the original. If it was translated literally, we would likely read assembly or congregation. Then go to vs 19 & 20. Here you will see this gathering to decide the matter can be as small as two or three! If this small body follows all three steps, God will honor their decision! This is not a decision that the man is condemned to hell. That is God's prerogative alone.

The purpose is restoration of the man. He is not a pagan or a tax collector, he is to be treated like he is, i.e. shunned. That's it! As in the story in 1 Corinthians 5, the purpose is to save the man - to bring him to his senses. Any group of Christians who gather together can carry this out regarding one who is a part of their congregation. No need for a Pope at all. Jesus is teaching about relationships, fellowship, and forgiveness in the passage. Why insist on erecting some huge institution to take care of it?

God bless, Homer



Tom

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steve
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by steve » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:41 am

I don't get it, Tom. Why did you post Homer's answer? We are asking for yours!

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darinhouston
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:27 am

tom wrote:This is where I think Homer is misrepresenting "two or more in My name...". Matt 18 is showing Christians how to handle a problem within Christianity. In v15 we have at least two Christians/brothers. So now we've satisfied your criterion of "where two or more are gathered in My name there I am." But wait, Jesus tells us to go beyond two. We are to take it to MORE Christians. Surely this will satisfy the "two or more in My name...". But wait, there's more! Take it to the Church!
As far as a pagan/tax collector being just shunned from the Christian community. Yes! But much more. Pagans/tax collectors were considered the worst of sinners. They were lost. They, if anyone, were the ones going to hell.
I think Tom has a fair criticism of our position here worth clarifying, but I do think it's because of his paradigm of Institutionalized church. There is a middle ground between it meaning 2 Christians only and something akin to the monolithic RCC institution.

Tom, from our perspective, yes -- 2 or more constitute a gathering that can be seen in one respect as elements of the "church," but all such groups of 2 are members of the same "church," and unless we're talking about the only 2 Christians in some jungle somewhere, most such "2 people" do have a larger group of Christians with whom they also fellowship regularly (if they are not forsaking of the gathering, that is). So, if they do have a larger group of Christians with whom they fellowship, they would go to the "elders" of such a group (if non-institutionalized, there should be some who are regarded as the teachers/leaders through practice or otherwise), and if that doesn't "do it," then the whole fellowship (maybe it's a neighborhood prayer group they attend together regularly) would address it.

Now, Tom, can you answer Homer's question about the RCC?

popeman
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by popeman » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:43 pm

[Popeman's last message on this forum was once in this location. He will post here no more. I, for one, am sorry that we will never know what he thinks about any serious subject. —Steve]

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darinhouston
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by darinhouston » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:44 am

Popeman, I have a suspicion that you are about to learn how church discipline works in a loose fellowship like this one (even across the Internet). I would still love to know how I would bring this matter to discipline through your "church."

I continue to be offended by your continued tone and your speaking past us to Tom and your sarcasm, and believe you have sinned against me and the others here. You have been warned, it has been to the attention of the "eldership" around here, they have warned you, you have persisted, it has been discussed openly among the other believers here, and they have concurred, you were given another chance, and yet you persist. Perhaps we failed by not excluding you earlier, but we'll see how Steve responds to this post and take it from there.

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Michelle
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by Michelle » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:19 pm

[ I, for one, am sorry that we will never know what he thinks about any serious subject. —Steve]
I'm actually sorry as well — not that I think we would ever have gotten to know what popeman thinks about serious subjects since he tends to make everything into a joke, but because I really want to know more about what Roman Catholics believe. Maybe I should just swallow my pride and ask the one I'm related to in real life.

tom
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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by tom » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:48 pm

Darin and Steve,

I still don't see where I haven't answered the question about Matt 18 being practiced in the RCC. Steve thinks that excommunication is not practiced. Therefore the system of how to handle a sin among fellow Christians in the RCC, via Matt 18, is not used in the RCC?
steve wrote:Tom,

You wrote:
As far as excommunication I don't really know the process. I don't know how Moses handled his problems either! I do know that Fidel Castro has been excommunicated and can no longer receive communion in the RCC.
So, if the process described in Matthew 18:15-17 is ever practiced in the Catholic Church, you are not aware of it. This means that, if your brother sins against you, and you would like to follow Jesus' instructions in Matthew 18, you really wouldn't be able to do so. I think that places Roman Catholics at a serious disadvantage with reference to their being able to follow Jesus' instructions.
I don't think there are many "officially" excommunicated persons declared by the RCC. Some may not be allowed to receive communion due to a mortal sin in their lives. But the priest/layperson doesn't ask, it's up to that persons conscience that needs reconciliation, (Matt 5:22-24, 1Cor 11:27-28).


In other words, the Roman Catholics do not paractice Matthew 18:15-17, which instructs the one sinned against to approach the sinning party. This is not done in your church? Then why are you always pointing to this passage as some kind of support of the Roman Catholic Church. You yourself admit that they do not follow this teaching!

I thought I said "As far as excommunication, I don't really know the process.". Just because I don't know how the process is done does not mean it isn't practiced! I also gave the example of Fidel Castro being publicly excommunicated. Where in that statement does the RCC not practice excommunication?


Tom

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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by tom » Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:07 pm

steve wrote:Tom,

3. The suggestion that it is only fair for us to see the validity of your points, because we expect you to see the validity of ours.


On point #3: When it comes to seeking truth, the procedure does not involve trading points back and forth—"Okay, you made a good point there, now it's my turn. You have to acknowledge that one of my points is a good one!" I do not request that you acknowledge the validity of my points as a matter of fair-play. I only want you to accept them if they are true. If they are not, I want for you to show me why they are not true. There is no place for saying, "No fair! You made five valid points without recognizing any of mine as valid!" You want me to accept (as a matter of balancing the score) that your point #2 (above) was valid. But it isn't. I am still waiting to see if either you or popeman have anything resembling a biblical case to present in answer to our inquiries and challenges. You, at least, seem to be trying. For that I commend you. But the answers you are giving do not have a foundation in truth. I am not under obligation to say, "Okay, I have been right enough times. I guess it's about time for me to see the matter your way." I will see it your way when and if you can present a case that really deals with the scripture, instead of playing with it.

Steve,

I don't want to balance the score with 1 for you and 1 for me. I only want you to see that I'm, (the RCC), not just pulling this stuff out of my hat. I am using Scripture just like you all are!

And speaking of Scripture. I can see where popeman is saying you're using circular reasoning. Here's what you said; " When it comes to seeking truth, the procedure does not involve trading points back and forth...I only want you to accept them if they are true. If they are not, I want for you to show me why they are not true....You, at least, seem to be trying. For that I commend you. But the answers you are giving do not have a foundation in truth."

So in order to seek the Truth, we have to know what Truth is, so we can have a foundation in Truth!???

You make no sense,

Tom

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Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Post by tom » Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:18 pm

tom wrote:
steve wrote:Hi Tom,

You wrote:
If the Holy Spirit is in the head of all true Christians then the Holy Spirit must be schizophrenic. How come you and Martin Luther don't agree on many of the doctrines of Christianity? We are all lead by the same Holy Spirit right?
Is it your intention to cast doubt on what Jesus and the apostles promised about the Holy Spirit's teaching the believers?

In answer to your question: not all students under the same teacher learn the same amount or at the same speed. There is one teacher of all Christians, but not all Christians are equally teachable or conscientious in their studies.
Steve,

Luther and Gregg have the "spirit of wisdom and revelation" it's just a matter of the Holy Spirit giving only so much wisdom and revelation to only certain Christians? If you're saying that Luther didn't come to the Truth because he didn't learn as well as you, (because you must think you're right and have come to the Truth), or didn't meditate long enough on doctrine that you and he disagree.

As I have said on "The Narrow Path" you will never know if you have the Truth. And even if you do come to the Truth you may not even know it! Everyone did what was right in their own eyes and you will never know if you have the Truth.

Tom
Darin and Steve,

You have been asking me to answer your questions but I haven't seen a reasonable answer to many questions popeman and I have asked. Here's one I asked. Maybe you can finally give an answer?

Tom

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