‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to Unite

BrotherAlan
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by BrotherAlan » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:27 am

Hi, Homer—
The key passages in the Scriptures which point us to the Immaculate Conception of Jesus’ Mom are, as the Pope pointed out, Gen. 3:15 along with Luke 1:28. In short, Gen. 3:15 points us to the fact that Mary is the “New Eve”, and, thus, she, like the New Adam (Christ, her Son), and cooperating in an uniquely special way with Him in the work of Redemption and defeating Satan (though, of course, she is subordinate to Him, He who is THE Redeemer and the God-Man), is, from the first moment of her conception, at perfect enmity with the Devil (and, thus, from the first moment of her conception, she is perfected in grace, as the Angel reveals in Luke 1:28).

It is also important for us to appreciate deeply the sublime nature of the Incarnation, and the fact that Mary was chosen by God, AND fittingly prepared, to be the Mother of the Incarnate Word. Considering these facts—all of which we know, of course, from the Scriptures (thus, these facts count as “Scriptural data”)-- it is very difficult to overestimate the important role that Mary has in salvation history, and, along with that, the great holiness that she had to have had (and, of course, continues to have in heaven). Though, of course, she is merely a creature, while her Son is the eternal God, nevertheless, the fact that God, because of the grace and holiness with which He Himself filled her, chose her to be the Mother of His Son (according to His human nature), shows for us very clearly the great holiness that Mary had (and, as the Pope explained, this, in itself, at the very least, begins to point us to see that she, even from the first moment of her conception, was never without the grace of God). Thus, again, not only does the dogma of the Immaculate Conception not lessen, in our eyes, the importance of the Incarnation, it, actually, emphasizes and magnifies the importance of the Incarnation (for, if we deeply appreciate that Jesus Christ is the Eternal God, and that Mary was chosen and FITTINGLY prepared by God to be His Mother according to His human nature, then we can not fail to appreciate Mary and her role, and we begin to see that it was fitting for HER soul to be filled with God's grace, even from the first moment of her existence, i.e., at her conception).

In Christ, the Divine Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan
[i]"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."[/i]

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Homer
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Homer » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:46 pm

Hi BrotherAlan,

Reading the two scriptures you cited in the pope's message I can see nothing that remotely hints of Mary being immaculately conceived. I do not see how any non-biased person would find it there. Of coarse, being a non-Romanist Christian, I go by the scriptures alone. And I understand that you see the Pope's declaration as on par with scripture, so there is no common basis for our discussion.

I do not believe any new born infant bears any guilt for Adam's sin. The consequence of Adam's sin that falls on us all is physical death, and that, of coarse, fell on Mary as it does all of us. I see no need for her to have been immaculately conceived.

BrotherAlan
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by BrotherAlan » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:30 am

Dear Homer,
When you deny that Mary was "immaculately conceived", what are you denying? What do you mean by "the Immaculate Conception" of Mary?

The reason I ask is because it might be the case (and I think is the case) that we are not on "the same page" with respect to the doctrine of Original Sin. Since a proper understanding of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary implies, first, a proper understanding of the doctrine of Original Sin, unless we are on the same page with respect to the doctrine of Original Sin, we can not possibly have a common understanding (let alone belief) concerning the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Without knowing what "Original Sin" is, we do not really know what we are talking about when we are talking about the "Immaculate Conception" of Mary.

That we might not have a common understanding of Original Sin is not surprising, though; as it took many centuries of theological thought for Catholic theologians to really "pound out" a precise description/definition of Original Sin; and, this is one reason why it took some time for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to develop (thus, in response to previous questions as to why the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is not clearly found in the writings of the early Church Fathers, I would say, first of all, that we do see the "seeds" of this fully-developed doctrine in the early Church Fathers; but, one reason why we do not see a fully developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in the early Church Fathers is because they were still working on developing the even more fundamental doctrine of Original Sin).

In Christ, the Son of God and Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan
[i]"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."[/i]

BrotherAlan
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by BrotherAlan » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:08 am

Homer,
Also, with respect to our discussion on the Immaculate Conception of Mary, in addition to having a proper and common understanding of Original Sin in order to have a proper and common understanding of the Immaculate Conception, we also need to have agreement on truths about Mary (and Jesus) which are more obviously revealed by the Holy Scriptures. So, on this note, I throw out this question to you, Homer (and anyone else in on this discussion): do you think that the Scriptures reveal to us that there is something quite special about Mary, both in terms of her role in salvation history as well as her holiness? Before speaking about her being Immaculately Conceived, we would have to first answer this question about whether or not the Scriptures reveal that there is something particularly special about Mary and the graces which we given to her.

For, one thing to keep in mind about the Catholic Church's doctrine on the Immaculate Conception is that it is a doctrine which, again, was developed after many, many centuries of prayerful thought and reflection by Catholic theologians on Mary; so, to properly understand the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (and to see how/why the Catholic Church holds that the Scriptures reveal this doctrine), one has to first see the more basic and obvious Scriptural revelations concerning Mary (one such fact, in our minds as Catholics, is that the Scriptures reveal that Mary was blessed with a special level of holiness in order to fit her for her very important role as being Mother of the Savior). If one does not see "eye to eye" with the Catholic Church on these more fundamental (and obvious) Scriptural revelations about Mary, one will not be able to see "eye to eye" with the Church on a more developed doctrine like the Immaculate Conception.

Also, on a related point, to clear up something that was written in your last post, Homer, which revealed a possible misunderstanding concerning the way Catholic theology works, it is not Catholic thought that the Pope's teachings are "on par" with the Scriptures. Rather, it is Catholic belief that the Magisterium ("Teaching Authority") of the Catholic Church, which Magisterium is headed by the Pope (who is the successor of the Apostle Peter, who was the first Pope), and guided by Apostolic Tradition, gives a proper interpretation for what the Scriptures really mean. For, the fact is that everyone reads the Scriptures based on some kind of tradition, and, usually, guided by the interpretation of someone who is regarded as being a legitimate pastor. So, the question is, "What tradition ought to be used to help us PROPERLY understand the Scriptures?" and "Which pastor has the God-given authority to give a proper interpretation of the Scriptures?" If we are not guided by the right tradition (and the proper pastor), we may very well misinterpret and misunderstand the Scriptures themselves (indeed, we may not even have the right Canon of the Bible-- we may not even know what the Bible itself is!-- if we do not follow the right tradition and the authoritative pastors of Christ's true Church).

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

P.S.
Also, going back to the discussion on the Mass, here is a video from the famous American Archbishop, Fulton Sheen, on the nature of the Mass, and its proper relationship to Calvary (he explains how the Mass IS the Cross, Sacramentally re-presented for us, it is a Sacramental re-presentation of Calvary; how Christ offered up Himself once for all, and does die again, and so the Mass "reaches back in time" and places before our very eyes this supremely important event of Calvary, and, thus, the Mass is a very holy thing, not a bad thing; and, thus, the Mass does not take away from the Cross, but, rather, it shows the value and importance of Christ's Sacrifice, made once for all, on the Cross): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr_57fD6Ado&t=1300s
[i]"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."[/i]

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