Hell and the Lake of Fire?

Post by **_Jim** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:04 am

JC,

I say the second death is the second seperation and permanent seperation from God. Adam caused the first death to come on us and our first seperation from God. Jesus came so that we could be with God giving us Life again. To deny Jesus will bring on the second death at judgment.

Jim

Post by **_JC** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:56 am

Jim, so would you say that "life" and "death" are spiritual terms and do not equate to existence and non-existence? I can see this being possible since God told Adam "the day you eat of the tree you will die." Well, Adam lived some 900 years after that day so it could be argued that the death spoken of in the garden was spiritual. I can see the second death being cast away from God in the closing of the book of Revelation where we are told that the ungodly will be outside the city gates. This could be referring to Gehenna since the visual is used elsewhere by Jesus and the valley of hinnom was literally outside Jerusalem's gates. My only questions is... what does this Gehanna symbolism mean?

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:24 am

JC, my thought exactly, if what the orthodox position states is true, they have eternal life, also Hitler if he did not make a death bed confession will have eternal life, although not a very quality one.
Jim you are failing to understand what is written, I think. for ever and ever aionion denotes time. It should probably be translated a long long time.
Jim, questioning my salvation? shame on you.
Confess Jesus is Lord(Not God, in acts he has exalted him to Lord, And made him both Lord and Christ), believe in your heart God raised him from the dead(not he raised himself. Nor that he did not die, cause God cannot die). Maybe it is you that should reexamine your beliefs.

Post by **_JC** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:40 am

Jesusfollower, didn't our Lord say that "before Abraham was, I am?" He assigned himself the title of the God of the old testament. His Jewish listeners certainly thought that's what he was saying because they wanted to stone him for this.

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:48 am

JC, it seems to me they misunderstood almost everything he said. Did you read what I posted before?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:42 pm

Let's face it. The Greek word "aionion" is the adjectival form of the noun "aion" (age). This adjective never means "eternal".

The Greek word for "eternal" is "aidios". This word occurs in the New Testament with reference to "His eternal power and deity". This word is never used in the New Testament with reference to the suffering of the lost in Gehenna.

We believe that "God is love". Do we imagine Him to be too weak to save His creatures, so that He must either send over 99.99% of humanity to eternal torment (Would that be love?) or annihilate them?

All of God's judgments are remedial. The Lake of Fire has a purpose. It is one of the means by which the Christ rejectors will be corrected. But they will not automatically be transferred to heaven when they have "done their stint". They must repent and submit to Christ, just as you and I did. And sooner or later they will! God is patiently waiting. He has all the time in the Universe!

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:09 pm

Paidion, sounds like a very hopeful outlook for the enemies of God. It also seems like to come to this conclusion one would have to ignore an awful lot of scripture citing the complete destruction of those enemies. Not to mention the logical disparity with the " HE WILL TORTURE THEM INTO SUBMISSION " thing. Sort of works against free will eh? I would have to be the king of fools not to accept the truth after it is all said and done.
No, I think it is clear man as one life and then judgment. Man has his life time to figure it out, if he does not, eternal death. This does not include the infants, for all Gods judgments are just.

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:35 pm

Paidion, here is short look at the theology called Universalism as built off Tertullian and Origen's misplaced Platonistic view of the immortal soul.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... icle&sid=4

Post by **_JC** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:17 pm

Jesusfollower, I wasn't going to mention this before but you seem to frequently quote from the truth or tradition website. That isn't necessarily a bad thing but this is becoming a tradition of its own in your posts and it kind of appears that you are parroting what you've read there. This community isn't wrapped up in tradition and that should be obvious to you considering the amount of time you've spent here.

I think Paidion is well aware of the argument you presented. Though I've disagreed with him in the past, the man knows his stuff. Please don't assume those who hold a different opinion than your own to be unaware of opposing arguments or wrapped up in tradition. I was even called a heretic by one member of my church for teaching the three historic views of hell, without even giving my own opinion on the subject. That should tell you where I, personally, stand on church tradition verus the word of God.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:20 pm

I think Paidion is well aware of the argument you presented. Though I've disagreed with him in the past, the man knows his stuff. Please don't assume those who hold a different opinion than your own to be unaware of opposing arguments or wrapped up in tradition. I was even called a heretic by one member of my church for teaching the three historic views of hell, without even giving my own opinion on the subject. That should tell you where I, personally, stand on church tradition verus the word of God.

We had a long thread on this at "alternative views on hell" and if you simply read what happens to unbelievers who are thrown into the LOF you will find silence. But you will find three interesting verses afterwards , 1) the gates of NJ are open 2) all sinners including liars and timid can't get in NJ and since everyone has lied and been timid this verse must mean unrepentent sinners which suggests that since it's mentioned after people are in the LOF it would appear to me that repentence can occur in the LOF. 3) Rev 22.17 the Spirit and the BRIDE invite WHOSOEVER (non bride people) to partake in the water of life.
This invitation is 5 verses before the end of the whole bible.
In addition the apostles who had their understanding of the scriptures opened up to them by Jesus (Luke 24.45) never mentioned eternal torment in hell.
So i think Paidion is probably right.