Everlasting Destruction?

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Homer
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:45 pm

Paidion,

I hadn't looked at this thread for some time but noticed this today,
I think I have made clear in previous posts that "ἀιωνιος" never means "eternal" though it can apply to things unending as well as things which have an end.
Is this Paidionspeak or what? Eternal and unending are synonyms, are they not? God's power is eternal which means it is age-during (or whatever) although it is unending?

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steve
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by steve » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:17 pm

Homer,

Take the English words "durable" and "enduring." Would you say that these words are synonyms for "eternal"? Of course not. But might they, in a certain context, appropriately be used when referring to something that lasts forever? Of course! I think that is how Paidion's statement should be understood. It isn't self-contradictory.

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Paidion
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:36 pm

Thank you, Steve. That's a good illustration.

An adjective X may denote a noun which has quality Y without Y being the MEANING of X.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:04 pm

Seer wrote:Do you have any evidence that 2Thessalonians 1:9 is speaking of merely the extirpation of evil?


No, I don't. But why do you say "merely". Regeneration and the extirpation of evil is a huge accomplishment. Unlike most dictators who merely kill their enemies, God destroys His enemies by winning them to Himself.

Even in an earthly war, which king would be superior, the one who eliminates his enemies, or the one who wins them over to his side?
That anyone comes back from the lake of fire?
I don't have direct evidence. But if not, I don't see how God could be the Savior of ALL people (I Tim 4:10). If not, I don't see how every tongue could confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11) It is written that whoever confesses with his lips is saved (Romans 10:10).

If not, I don't see why John, in his vision heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages. (Revelation 5:12-13).

If not, I don't see how God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. (Romans 11:32 )

If not, I don't see how Jesus has the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself, if He is not going to use that power. (Philippians 3:20,21)
Are the devil and his angels also going to be purified?
It would be an even greater glory to God if they were!
Why can't the destruction in Thessalonians actually be everlasting?
I am sure that the destruction of evil will be everlasting. That is why Jesus sacrificed Himself on our behalf::

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Homer » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:55 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
An adjective X may denote a noun which has quality Y without Y being the MEANING of X.
And adjective X may denote a noun which has a quality Y, with X and Y being synonomous, as are eternal and unending, which makes your statement, without explanation, appear to be contradictory.

Consider what Thayer, the beau ideal of the Universalists, has to say on the meaning of aionios:

1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be

2. without beginning

3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

Seeing that he is in your camp, you can not possibly say he is biased against your position. You can flatter yourself with the thought that you have "made it clear" that aionios never means eternal; you are mistaken, you have done no such thing, as probably 99% of the lexicons attest.

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Paidion
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Paidion » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:11 pm

Homer wrote:
Paidion wrote:An adjective X may denote a noun which has quality Y without Y being the MEANING of X.
And adjective X may denote a noun which has a quality Y, with X and Y being synonomous, as are eternal and unending, which makes your statement, without explanation, appear to be contradictory.
I have given an example. In what way was it deficient? I am too lazy to look it up, but since there are thousands of examples, I will give another, and show that it is a complete analogy to the αἰωνιος (aiōnios) life we have in Christ.

1. Strawberries are red, and have the quality of being non-poisonous.
2. But "red" does not MEAN "non-poisonous". Indeed, it NEVER means "non-poisonous"
3. Yet "red" sometimes applies to that which is non-poisonous, in this case "strawberries".

1. The life we receive from Christ is αἰωνιος, and has the quality of being eternal.
2. But "αἰωνιος" does not MEAN "eternal". Indeed, it NEVER means "eternal".
3. Yet "αἰωνιος" sometimes applies to that which is eternal, in this case the life we receive in Christ.

And now I will show a quote from Chrystostum (347-407 A.D.) in which he clearly uses "αἰωνιος" to refer to that which will cease. This is taken from homily on the letter of Paul to the Ephesians.

"According to the power," he says, "of the air, of the spirit."

Here again he means, that Satan occupies the space under Heaven, and that the incorporeal powers are spirits of the air, under his operation. For his kingdom is αἰωνιος, in other words, it will cease with the present age.


It would be self-contradictory for Chrystostum to say that Satan's kingdom is eternal, and then go on to explain that this means it will cease with the present age. But try reading "For his kingdom pertains to an age", and his statement makes perfect sense.

Sometimes the "age" to which αἰωνιος refers can be rather short. Josephus in Wars of the Jews chapter 6, spoke of Jonathon being condemned to αἰωνιος imprisonment, which was, in fact, a three-year prison term.

Here is a quote from Diodorus Siculus (1st century B.C.) Library Book 17, chapter 71 (bolding mine)

I think that it is not inappropriate to speak briefly about the palace area of the city because of the richness of its buildings.The citadel is a noteworthy one, and is surrounded by a triple wall. The first part of this is built over an elaborate foundation. It is sixteen cubits in height and is topped by battlements. The second wall is in all other respects like the first but of twice the height. The third circuit is rectangular in plan, and is sixty cubits in height,41 built of a stone hard and naturally durable. Each of the sides contains a gate with bronze doors, beside each of which stand bronze poles twenty cubits high; these were intended to catch the eye of the beholder, but the gates were for security.

Guess what word was translated as "durable". Yep, none other than "αἰωνιος". I don't know whether or not "durable" is the best translation of the word in this context (it probably is), but what I do know is that "eternal" would never do.

You can look up this quote for yourself. It's the second paragraph of chapter 71

hard "eternal" stone

There is no way that I can prove that "αἰωνιος" never means "eternal" (though it doesn't), any more than I can prove that the word "red" never means "non-poisonous"(though it doesn't).
What we need to do is look at as many instances as possible in Hellenistic Greek literature (300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) and see how the word is used. From that, we should determine the meaning of the word, and not from the editor of some theologically biased lexicon.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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