Everlasting Destruction?

[seer]

I am not assuming anything. I was giving examples of how the Greek words for "destroy" and "destruction" sometimes refer not to the destruction of the essential essence of a thing or person, but to the undesirable qualities in that thing or person, and thus it could be so meant in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 as well.

Why could not "the destruction of the unbeliever both body and soul" also refer to extirpation of evil from both body and soul? Do you have any scriptural evidence which unequivocally opposes such a view?

Do you have any evidence that 2Thessalonians 1:9 is speaking of merely the extirpation of evil? That anyone comes back from the lake of fire? Are the devil and his angels also going to be purified? Why can't the destruction in Thessalonians actually be everlasting?

[darinhouston]

I think I found this on the old forum, but if anyone hasn't seen it, it looks interesting...

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.shtml

Here's the Preface...

ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE Doctrine of Endless Punishment BY THOMAS B. THAYER

This little work is written for the purpose of furnishing a sketch of the argument by which it is shown that the doctrine of Endless Punishment is not of divine origin, but traceable directly to a heathen source.

It is not intended as an elaborately philosophical or critical discussion of the subject, as the size of the volume will show; but only as a popular presentation of the method of proof, and of the leading facts and authorities on which the argument rests.

Those having time and sources of information at command, will enter into a more thorough investigation for themselves. For such this work is not designed; but for those who, not having the opportunity, nor the books, necessary to a complete and critical examination of the question, wish a brief statement of the facts and arguments on which is grounded the assertion that the doctrine of endless torments is of heathen origin.

This will account for the absence of many things which the reader might justly expect to find here, and which rightfully claim place in a work bearing the title of this.

The subject treated is one of very great importance, and equally concerns the purity of Christian doctrine, and the happiness and virtue of those believing. It is every day commanding more and more attention from serious and thoughtful minds. And on all sides, and in the churches of all sects, there is increased inquiry into the foundations of the doctrine, and rapidly growing doubts of its divine origin and authority. It is possible the following pages may help to answer some of the questions growing out of this state of mind, and to show how a doctrine, thoroughly heathen in origin and character, came to be adopted by the Christian church.

The sale of the first edition of nearly two thousand copies in the space of three or four months, without being advertised in any form, has encouraged me to believe that the work meets an actual want, and will be serviceable to the cause of Truth. In the preparation of the present edition, therefore, I have made considerable additions; and, I trust, improvements also, in the hope of making it more worthy and more useful. Two chapters and two sections entire have been added, and chapters three, four and six, have been greatly enlarged, and the argument illustrated and fortified by new facts and authorities.

Still the book is far from what I could wish, or what it might be made, if time, and all the means of investigation, were at command. Yet, such as it is, I send it forth again, to do what work it may; believing that, in the conflict of opinions, Truth only is immortal, and cheerfully confident, therefore, that, at last, all error and all evil will perish.

Since the above was written, this work has passed through several large editions. The present issue has additional testimonies strengthening the argument in its various branches. Most of these, with the exception of those pertaining to Chapters III and IX., which are inserted in the body of the text, are gathered into a single chapter at the end of the book; and to facilitate reference, notes have been added to the chapters and sections to which they severally belong.

Boston, January, 1871.

[dean198]

2 Thessalonians 1

6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

It seems pretty clear. And how can one escape the universal presence of the Lord? Easy - they no longer exist... Dead and gone...

Yes, it does seem to say that. But then I was reading through Matthew today, and it was speaking about Tyre and other places being raised up on the day of judgment and condemning the Galilean cities Jesus preached in. It makes me wonder though - is there no judgment seat and resurrection for those who are alive and are destroyed by the angels at the second coming? or maybe they stay alive while everyone else is raised, and then the grand Assize commences?

[seer]

Dean Paul does not give a time frame per-say. Christ said there was a resurrection of the just and unjust. I suspect that will begin the process of their judgement. And I do not believe they will be destroyed in that instance - but will face a time of punishment according to the degree of each's individual sins..

[Theophilus]

The picture of the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, is a picture of a garbage dump where dead bodies and refuse were thrown. The place was apparently kept burning with sulfur so that there was always rising smoke reminding the onlooker of destruction.

Sometimes I wonder if those who are not found in Christ will suffer similar torment that Jesus suffered. Maybe after the criminals were crucified their bodies were thrown into Gehenna. And all this happened outside Jerusalem.

What person, if he were in his right mind, would not want to be in Christ? And God does not wish that any should perish.

Why would the Scriptures below exist if final destruction/death was not a possibility? Rev 22:14 and Genesis 3:22 seem to indicate that the Tree of Life will be consumed by some and not all.

Matt 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 25
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Isa 66
15 See, the LORD is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For with fire and with his sword
the LORD will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain by the LORD.
...
23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Rev 22
14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

[Priestly1]

Greetings,
Destruction in the Koine Greek means "no longer fit for it's purpose".....but it does not mean to become nonexistent. If a light bulb's filament burns out the light Bulb has perished......it has been destroyed. Yet the constituent parts of that item still remain....thus destrroying an object does not imply annihilation. No Translator has "everlasting annihilation" As everlasting is included in the modern idea of nonexistance.


In Christ,

Rev. Ken
PS wouldn't it be nice for our fears and human notions that God was as we are and his ways ours.

[auggybendoggy]

The picture of the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, is a picture of a garbage dump where dead bodies and refuse were thrown. The place was apparently kept burning with sulfur so that there was always rising smoke reminding the onlooker of destruction.

Sometimes I wonder if those who are not found in Christ will suffer similar torment that Jesus suffered. Maybe after the criminals were crucified their bodies were thrown into Gehenna. And all this happened outside Jerusalem.

What person, if he were in his right mind, would not want to be in Christ? And God does not wish that any should perish.

Why would the Scriptures below exist if final destruction/death was not a possibility? Rev 22:14 and Genesis 3:22 seem to indicate that the Tree of Life will be consumed by some and not all.

Matt 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt 25
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Isa 66
15 See, the LORD is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For with fire and with his sword
the LORD will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain by the LORD.
...
23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Rev 22
14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Theophilus,
as a EU-ist I think there are many ways different people read these scriptures. It's easy to see a certain point of view when a series of scriptures are taken into consideration. Indeed we all do this.

I think the reason why people don't take certain scriptures as demanding a final death is due to other scriptures. In fact the reason why you probably don't see the world being reconciled to God is due to other scriptures which state men will be lost forever.

Just as an example, you raise a verse which states the following
1) Dont be afraid of men who can destroy the body but not the soul
2) Be afraid of the one who can destroy both the body and soul in hell.

So most people take this scripture and thus declare to the world "be afraid of God"

However the following statement of Jesus' words are:
1) Don't be afraid
2) you are worth more than many sparrows.

Thus when many preach be afraid, I would argue Jesus is saying, God loves you so DONT BE AFRAID. But in fact the conditionalist does proclaim that being afraid of an eternal damnation is dependant upon the person loving God or not. I argue that our fear is dependant upon God loving us or not, not vice versa.

Sincerely,

Auggy

[Suzana]

PS wouldn't it be nice for our fears and human notions that God was as we are and his ways ours.

Hi.
I'm actually rather glad that God's ways are WAY higher than our ways, and do find comfort, and hope, in verses such as these:

Psalms 103:8-10 (NKJV)

8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
9 He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor punished us according to our iniquities.

14 For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.

Even though these scriptures are in the context of being written to those who fear God, yet surely the same principles could also apply to the rest of humankind.

[Michelle]

Greetings,
Destruction in the Koine Greek means "no longer fit for it's purpose".....but it does not mean to become nonexistent. If a light bulb's filament burns out the light Bulb has perished......it has been destroyed. Yet the constituent parts of that item still remain....thus destrroying an object does not imply annihilation. No Translator has "everlasting annihilation" As everlasting is included in the modern idea of nonexistance.


In Christ,

Rev. Ken
PS wouldn't it be nice for our fears and human notions that God was as we are and his ways ours.

Hi Rev. Ken,

I tried to check this out, and found that there were 4 different words in Greek that are translated "destruction."

They are: apōleia, kathairesis, olethros, and syntrimma.

Which one means "no longer fit for its purpose" (or do all 4 mean that?)

[RND]

Greetings,
Destruction in the Koine Greek means "no longer fit for it's purpose".....but it does not mean to become nonexistent. If a light bulb's filament burns out the light Bulb has perished......it has been destroyed. Yet the constituent parts of that item still remain....thus destrroying an object does not imply annihilation. No Translator has "everlasting annihilation" As everlasting is included in the modern idea of nonexistance.


In Christ,

Rev. Ken
PS wouldn't it be nice for our fears and human notions that God was as we are and his ways ours.

Interesting analogy. I can't help but ask if there would be any purpose in subjecting a burned-out light bulb to any further acts of of destruction? Would a burned-out light bulb be even more destroyed if it was burned in a fire or smashed with a hammer? Since all the parts of the light bulb are from the earth will the light bulb eventually return to whence it came over time?