Everlasting Destruction?

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seer
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:53 pm

schoel wrote:
seer wrote: There is another part of my argument. The wicked lost are said to be tormented in the presence of Christ "forever and ever" (or ages) Rev.14:10,11. It's seems that their torment is directly linked to the presence of Christ.

schoel wrote:
Hi

I think this depends on how you read the meaning of the word from.

That the punishment is away or separate from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power is one way to read this.

The other way is that the source of the punishment is the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power. This reading doesn't require separation from God's presence
Anyone listening?

Dave
????
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Homer » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:35 pm

Corrected my last post - numbers were messed up. Don't know if anyone understood it; I didn't when I looked at it later.

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by schoel » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:44 am

This thread seems to be a debate regarding how someone can be punished eternally away from the presence of God. However, this is based on an understanding of the word from in the 2 Thessalonians text where its meaning is taken to be apart from.

There is another way to understand the word from in the context of the verse. The word "from" could communicate that God is the source of the punishment as in destruction that comes from .
The verse that seer listed from Revelation also gives weight to the alternate meaning.


Is there any specific reason to deny the alternate meaning that renders the debate inconsequential?

Dave

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:29 am

schoel wrote:This thread seems to be a debate regarding how someone can be punished eternally away from the presence of God. However, this is based on an understanding of the word from in the 2 Thessalonians text where its meaning is taken to be apart from.

There is another way to understand the word from in the context of the verse. The word "from" could communicate that God is the source of the punishment as in destruction that comes from .
The verse that seer listed from Revelation also gives weight to the alternate meaning.


Is there any specific reason to deny the alternate meaning that renders the debate inconsequential?

Dave
No text that I know translates this as "comes from." "Apart from" would work. And my point would stand.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by universalist » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:31 pm

There is another way to view this passage. It is not necessarily refering to the return of Christ when He comes to resurrect the dead; it could be making reference to a "coming of the Lord" similar to AD 70. I believe the Lord "visits" the disobedient frequently with His punishments and rewards those who follow Him. The term "Everlasting Destruction" is a metaphor that describes punishment from the Eternal Father.

Todd

(Formerly Father_of_Five)

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:43 am

universalist wrote:There is another way to view this passage. It is not necessarily refering to the return of Christ when He comes to resurrect the dead; it could be making reference to a "coming of the Lord" similar to AD 70. I believe the Lord "visits" the disobedient frequently with His punishments and rewards those who follow Him. The term "Everlasting Destruction" is a metaphor that describes punishment from the Eternal Father.

Todd

(Formerly Father_of_Five)

They are still removed from the presence of God. Where do they exist then?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by universalist » Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:40 am

seer wrote: They are still removed from the presence of God. Where do they exist then?
Being "in God's presence" could describe the joy, peace, and love one enjoys in communion with the Holy Spirit; conversely, being "away from" God's presence could describe the guilt, shame and anxiety of the disobedient and sinful. In addition, it may also include the punishments as described in Rom 1:19-32, Rom 13:1-6.

Todd

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:05 am

So far, in attempting to explain I Thessalonians 1:9, no one seems to have considered the meaning of the Greek noun "ὀλεθρος" translated as "destruction" and the Greek adjective "ἀιωνιος" translated as "eternal".

I think I have made clear in previous posts that "ἀιωνιος" never means "eternal" though it can apply to things unending as well as things which have an end. It is the adjectival form of the noun "ἀιων" (age), and means "going from age to age" or in some contexts "permanent".

I will now concentrate on the noun "ὀλεθρος" (usually translated "destruction") which like the verb "ἀπολλυμι" (usually translated "destroy") both originate from the verb "ὀλλυμι".

Let's first examine the use of the verb "ἀπολλυμι" in I Peter 1:6,7.

In [your ultimate salvation] you now rejoice, though now for a little while you must be made sorrowful in various trials so that the testing of your faith ( more valuable than gold being destroyed through fire), being tested may be found for praise and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Now we now that when gold goes through fire, the pure gold itself, though it melts, is not destroyed. What is destroyed is the original form of the gold, the raw ore. Peter's point seems to be that the testing of our faith also serves to purify us.

Now let's consider another place, I Corinthians 5:5, in which the noun "ὀλεθρος" (destruction) is used.

...you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The man to which Paul was referring, was a man in the Corinthian church who had been copulating with his step-mother. The way in which the church delivered the man to Satan was by excommunicating him and shunning him. Did this result in the man being killed, or destroyed, or annihilated? No. It resulted in the destruction of the man's "flesh" or self-serving nature. For between the writing of I Corinthians and 2 Corinthians, the man repented, and his nature was changed. After that, Paul had quite different instructions concerning how the Corinthians were to treat the man:

But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to you all. For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs. 2 Corinthians 2:5-11


So the man was not destroyed. Rather "the flesh", the evil which was in him was destroyed.

So in the light of the meaning of these two words, how do I understand 2 Thessalonians 1:9?

They shall pay the penalty of age-to-age destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

The purpose of the penalty is remedial. The purification process will last for ages, during which they will be excluded from the presence of the Lord, though that process does have its origin in the Lord (so both meanings of "ἀπο" seem to apply). But finally all that which is evil within them will be destroyed, until they are ready to be reconciled to God, who will, sooner or later, reconcile all people to Himself.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:10 pm

Paidion wrote:So far, in attempting to explain I Thessalonians 1:9, no one seems to have considered the meaning of the Greek noun "ὀλεθρος" translated as "destruction" and the Greek adjective "ἀιωνιος" translated as "eternal".

I think I have made clear in previous posts that "ἀιωνιος" never means "eternal" though it can apply to things unending as well as things which have an end. It is the adjectival form of the noun "ἀιων" (age), and means "going from age to age" or in some contexts "permanent".

I will now concentrate on the noun "ὀλεθρος" (usually translated "destruction") which like the verb "ἀπολλυμι" (usually translated "destroy") both originate from the verb "ὀλλυμι".

Let's first examine the use of the verb "ἀπολλυμι" in I Peter 1:6,7.

In [your ultimate salvation] you now rejoice, though now for a little while you must be made sorrowful in various trials so that the testing of your faith ( more valuable than gold being destroyed through fire), being tested may be found for praise and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Now we now that when gold goes through fire, the pure gold itself, though it melts, is not destroyed. What is destroyed is the original form of the gold, the raw ore. Peter's point seems to be that the testing of our faith also serves to purify us.

Now let's consider another place, I Corinthians 5:5, in which the noun "ὀλεθρος" (destruction) is used.

...you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The man to which Paul was referring, was a man in the Corinthian church who had been copulating with his step-mother. The way in which the church delivered the man to Satan was by excommunicating him and shunning him. Did this result in the man being killed, or destroyed, or annihilated? No. It resulted in the destruction of the man's "flesh" or self-serving nature. For between the writing of I Corinthians and 2 Corinthians, the man repented, and his nature was changed. After that, Paul had quite different instructions concerning how the Corinthians were to treat the man:

But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to you all. For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs. 2 Corinthians 2:5-11


So the man was not destroyed. Rather "the flesh", the evil which was in him was destroyed.

So in the light of the meaning of these two words, how do I understand 2 Thessalonians 1:9?

They shall pay the penalty of age-to-age destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

The purpose of the penalty is remedial. The purification process will last for ages, during which they will be excluded from the presence of the Lord, though that process does have its origin in the Lord (so both meanings of "ἀπο" seem to apply). But finally all that which is evil within them will be destroyed, until they are ready to be reconciled to God, who will, sooner or later, reconcile all people to Himself.
You are reaching Paidion, you are assuming that the destruction in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 of a believer is the same as that of a non-believer. It doesn't necessarily follow. The unbeliever will be destroyed both body and soul...
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:41 pm

I am not assuming anything. I was giving examples of how the Greek words for "destroy" and "destruction" sometimes refer not to the destruction of the essential essence of a thing or person, but to the undesirable qualities in that thing or person, and thus it could be so meant in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 as well.

Why could not "the destruction of the unbeliever both body and soul" also refer to extirpation of evil from both body and soul? Do you have any scriptural evidence which unequivocally opposes such a view?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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