Everlasting Destruction?

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seer
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Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:29 pm

2 Thessalonians 1
6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

It seems pretty clear. And how can one escape the universal presence of the Lord? Easy - they no longer exist... Dead and gone...
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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TK
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by TK » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:52 pm

hi seer-

how do you respond to those who would say hell, by definition, is absence of the presence of the Lord?

TK

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:24 pm

TK wrote:hi seer-

how do you respond to those who would say hell, by definition, is absence of the presence of the Lord?

TK

I think it is false. If God's presence was not in hell, that would mean that God was not omnipresent. That is why I posted the 2 Thessalonians text - if the lost face final annihilation then they would be removed from said presence, and we don't have to sacrifice one of the main attributes of God. The wages of sin is death - not everlasting life in some form of hell.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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TK
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by TK » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:24 pm

I am sympathetic to the conditional immortality view, and in fact lean in that direction.

but the traditonal, eternal torment view always says that hell is eternal separation from God. now, whether eternal separation is possible even though God is "present" in hell is another question.

another thought- might God not "limit" his omnipresence if he chooses to do so? (i.e. he is everywhere except hell).

just wondering.

TK

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Homer
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:31 pm

TK wrote:
another thought- might God not "limit" his omnipresence if he chooses to do so? (i.e. he is everywhere except hell).

just wondering.
If God is unable to limit His presence we would seem to have a problem with another of his attributes: "All things are possible with God".

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seer
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:11 am

Homer wrote:TK wrote:
another thought- might God not "limit" his omnipresence if he chooses to do so? (i.e. he is everywhere except hell).

just wondering.
If God is unable to limit His presence we would seem to have a problem with another of his attributes: "All things are possible with God".
Is God able to limit His righteous nature? There are certainly things that God can not do. Like lie or create a square circle. So no I do not believe there is a "place" where God can not be.

Ps.139

7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,"
12Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day
Darkness and light are alike to You.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

schoel
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by schoel » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:55 am

Hi

I think this depends on how you read the meaning of the word from.

That the punishment is away or separate from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power is one way to read this.

The other way is that the source of the punishment is the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power. This reading doesn't require separation from God's presence

Dave

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Homer
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by Homer » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:52 am

Perhaps our problem is in our understanding of the meaning of "the presence of the Lord". I believe God's presence is experienced in three ways, if not more:

1. His general or omnipresence.

2. His indwelling Spirit.

3. His presence among those assembled in His name.

Matthew 18:20 (New King James Version)

20. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (New King James Version)

16. Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17. If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
(It is my belief that the "you" here is plural.)

So perhaps the "away from the presence of the Lord" is in reference to #2 & #3.

I am not sure David's poetic expression can be taken as proof that God can not be somewhere, at least in the sense that He presence involves no more than "holding all things together".
Last edited by Homer on Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by seer » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:49 am

Homer wrote:Perhaps our problem is in our understanding of the meaning of "the presence of the Lord". I believe God's presence is experienced in three ways, if not more:

1. His general or omnipresence.

3. His indwelling Spirit.

4. His presence among those assembled in His name.

Matthew 18:20 (New King James Version)

20. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (New King James Version)

16. Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17. If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
(It is my belief that the "you" here is plural.)

So perhaps the "away from the presence of the Lord" is in reference to #1 & #2.

I am not sure David's poetic expression can be taken as proof that God can not be somewhere, at least in the sense that He presence involves no more than "holding all things together".
There is another part of my argument. The wicked lost are said to be tormented in the presence of Christ "forever and ever" (or ages) Rev.14:10,11. It's seems that their torment is directly linked to the presence of Christ.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

schoel
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Re: Everlasting Destruction?

Post by schoel » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:17 pm

seer wrote: There is another part of my argument. The wicked lost are said to be tormented in the presence of Christ "forever and ever" (or ages) Rev.14:10,11. It's seems that their torment is directly linked to the presence of Christ.

schoel wrote:
Hi

I think this depends on how you read the meaning of the word from.

That the punishment is away or separate from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power is one way to read this.

The other way is that the source of the punishment is the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power. This reading doesn't require separation from God's presence
Anyone listening?

Dave

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