Unconditional vs Conditional Immortality

[Guest]

I don't know if I'm using the correct phrase but I'll describe what I'm referring to.

I've been taught that humanity was created immortal, but with sin physical death entered every human's life (I believe this is a Reformed view). After physical death, all persons, believers and unbelievers, continue to exist with the soul separated from the body. When Christ returns, He resurrects both the dead believers and unbelievers. The believers go on to reign and serve with Christ while the unbelievers are eternally separated from God in punishment. I've heard it said that for God to annihilate unbelievers rather than sustain them eternally in punishment is to allow the Devil a victory in forcing God to destroy something which he created to be eternal.

However, I heard Steve address briefly on the radio program in an interview that this view isn't stated in Scripture.

Am I getting this right?
If not, can someone correct and elaborate?

What are the verses used to support the above view of unconditional immortality?

Thanks in advance for the education

[Guest]

The view that the soul lives forever after death is true of believers, as I understand the scriptures on this matter (e.g., John 5:24; 11:26/ 2 Cor.5:8/ Phil.1:23/ Rev.6:9ff). However, it is nowhere clearly stated that this is true of unbelievers.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is one possible exception to this generality (Luke 16:19ff). However, not all scholars are convinced that Jesus intended this to be taken as an actual case, and it may have been illustrative merely, like the parables. Even if the story of the rich man in hades is a true and actual case, it makes no mention of the eternal duration of the man's condition.

Some of the main arguments for conditional immortality can be found under another thread at this forum, under the title "Alternative views of hell." I attempted in that place to summarize the biblical case for three views. Many people of different viewpoints have contributed, so that that particular thread has become the longest one at this forum. Here is the link to that topic:

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=460

[Guest]

1 Timothy 6:16 [God] alone has immortality...

This being the case, how can man have an "immortal soul"?

2Timothy 1:8-10 Do not be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel in the power of God,
who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago, and now has manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Through the gospel, death has been abolished. But people still die. The abolishment of death has not yet come into effect.

Through the gospel, life and immortality have been brought to light. But no one yet possesses immortality.

Jesus Himself was born into this world and died. He was not immortal.

Those who are privileged to share in the first resurrection will be raised immortal, even as Jesus was. They will never die again. "Death has been abolished ... through the gospel."

[Guest]

Paidion, Are'nt believers who died and whose spirits are with the Lord immortal since they are saved? At the great white throne judgement believers are judged for rewards not salvation ,at least that's my understanding.

[Guest]

Actually upon further thought i think in 1 Cor 15 Paul said the corruptable will put on the incorruptable in the blink of an eye at the second coming so i guess that would be the time immortality is granted.

[Guest]

One of the things that is attractive to me about the annihilationist view is that it appears to offer a complete and very simple answer to certain arguments against Christianity by nonbelievers relating to the fairness of infinite punishment for finite wrongdoing. I'm aware of arguments from the traditional view in answer to such objections, and I think they're right at the end of the day for what it's worth, but on the annihilationist view there simply is no objection, because the quantum of punishment is finite and can be limited to that commensurate to wrongdoing during one's life. Of course, theology can't be determined by what makes for easy apologetics, but to me this provides another reason to be attracted this approach if it is best supported by the scriptural evidence. (The other important reason for being attracted to the view being, of course, the wish that the unsaved experience less punishment.)

Regards,

CThomas

[Guest]

Greetings, CThomas, et al,

I don't want to debate anything but am in general agreement with what CThomas posted (I, myself, hold to the conditional immortality view). One thing I'll say (but do not want to debate) is that I don't get or base my beliefs on what I wish or would like to be true (and realize you probably weren't saying this, CThomas...I think I do know what you mean, though). For me, it's what the Bible teaches alone, regardless of how much I like or dislike it (as it sounds like you most likely agree also, CThomas)....

Anyway.
I found this article about a month ago which is pretty good, imo. Posting it "for your information" (as in, it's worth checking out what this guy says):

The Doctrine of Immortality in the Early Church
by Dr. John H. Roller

Just an 'information' post, not to debate anything,
Rick

P.S. I haven't done so yet but may email this man to ask for his book.

[Guest]

Steve,

Not to go off-topic, just a quick question.

How's that Edward Fudge book 'reading' so far?
(The Fire That Consumes: The Biblical Case for Conditional Immortality)
Not to get out-of-bounds on the thread...but I'm curious.
(And will, otherwise, be quiet)

Just a brief summary (if you don't mind), thanks,
Rick

[Guest]

but on the annihilationist view there simply is no objection, because the quantum of punishment is finite and can be limited to that commensurate to wrongdoing during one's life. Of course, theology can't be



Although i am sympathetic to the CU view because IMHO there is a fair amount of scriptural support i have no problem with the annihilation view because at least evil is destroyed which the bible explicitely states will happen at least as i see it.
However the opportunities to know Jesus in this life vary dramatically from culture to culture and person to person and i find this disparity an incomprehensible condition that a God of justice would simply allow to happen without something to balance the disparity.
Additionally it seems to me that most people are almost totally incompetent to make decisions affecting their eternal destiny. They can't even make decisions to benefit their day to day temporal existence yet their eternal destiny is in their own hands? It's like giving an atomic bomb to children and expecting them to make a wise decision.
So i know of nothing in scripture that prohibits our judgment at death from being a process or probationary period of punishment but also purification that may reconcile most and maybe even "all" eventually back to God.

[Guest]

Rick -- agreed, and I should have emphasized that more. Thanks.

CThomas